[Fluffy]

♠J84
♥AJ1098
♦Q3
♣A63

Dealer west, vulnerable E-W


(ps)-1♣-(1NT)-X
(ps)-ps-(2♦) -ps
(3♦)-ps-(ps) -??

[gnasher]

Fluffy, on Sep 21 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

♠J84
♥AJ1098
♦Q3
♣A63

Dealer west, vulnerable E-W


(ps)-1♣-(1NT)-X
(ps)-ps-(2♦) -ps
(3♦)-ps-(ps) -??

I would have bid 2♥ over 2♦.

[Jlall]

gnasher, on Sep 21 2009, 12:49 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Sep 21 2009, 06:45 PM, said:

♠J84
♥AJ1098
♦Q3
♣A63

Dealer west, vulnerable E-W


(ps)-1♣-(1NT)-X
(ps)-ps-(2♦) -ps
(3♦)-ps-(ps) -??

I would have bid 2♥ over 2♦.

Yep. Gotta bid 3H now but hate my pass of 2D.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

X.

And I hope, that I would have bid 2H over 2D as well.
As it is, I was not willing to introduce hearts over 2D, why should
I now?
And if I dont bid 3H, X it is.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[olliebol]

this boils down to : in a forcing situation (pass on 2 !d) is partners double penalty, if yes it seems at the table worthwile to try, you did any way. practically speaking see other comments.
so what now? well west has bid 3 !d with no points only distribution but he couldnt run from 1 nt doubled directly. what the hell does he have? looks like he s short in a major , afraid of us finding it. maybe 3244 and thinking we have game for sure why else offering a penalty? somehow hard to believe.
After all this masterminding i still dont know how on earth can you offer a penalty against game if yr partner overcalls 1nt you gotta have something special. game is no way a sure thing for opps.
i will play them for being idiots in a sense and double.

[jdonn]

I have to admit I would have passed over 2♦ in case partner could double, that occurence seems a fair amount more likely to me than a raise (not that there aren't other reasons to bid right away.) In any case 3♥ now of course.

[andy_h]

Under the circumstances, have to bid 3♥ now.

[mcphee]

I an not so fussy about pass of 2D, but I do consider the pass F and passing does allow partner to dble. Now faced with a raise to 3D I do not see why dble would be penalty. Under the conditions I would have to bid 3H. I am going to have to find our game what ever strain that may be.

[pooltuna]

mcphee, on Sep 22 2009, 07:10 AM, said:

I an not so fussy about pass of 2D, but I do consider the pass F and passing does allow partner to dble. Now faced with a raise to 3D I do not see why dble would be penalty. Under the conditions I would have to bid 3H. I am going to have to find our game what ever strain that may be.

Ah Ha!!! So you assume, like most of the other posters, that 3♥ is forcing?

[jdonn]

pooltuna, on Sep 22 2009, 07:19 AM, said:

mcphee, on Sep 22 2009, 07:10 AM, said:

I an not so fussy about pass of 2D, but I do consider the pass F and passing does allow partner to dble. Now faced with a raise to 3D I do not see why dble would be penalty. Under the conditions I would have to bid 3H. I am going to have to find our game what ever strain that may be.

Ah Ha!!! So you assume, like most of the other posters, that 3♥ is forcing?

What if it's not? You have a 12 count with a 1NT overcall on your right and Qx of the suit the opponents bid and raised.

[phil_20686]

i normally polay the first dble after a 1nt bid has been penalised is t/o, so i would have made a t/o double over 2d - problem solved. If this still comes back to me in 3d i can pass.

[nige1]

Fluffy, on Sep 21 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

Dealer west, vulnerable E-W ♠J84 ♥AJ1098 ♦Q3 ♣A63
(ps)-1♣-(1NT)-X
(ps)-ps-(2♦) -ps
(3♦)-ps-(ps) -??

I prefer methods are like Phil's but assuming that doubles are penalty oriented, I plough a lonely furrow.

• Over RHO's 2♦,
  • _P = 10 (Allows partner a crack at 2♦).
    
  • 3♦ = 6 (Worth a game try).
    
  • 2♥ = 2 (Gross underbid).
  
  
• After LHO's 3♦,
  • _X = 10 (You'd like another ♦ but double must now be co-operative, since you couldn't double 2♦.
    
  • 3♥ = 9 (You hope that partner does not pass when game is on).
    
  • 4♥ = 6 (A bit unilateral).

[gnasher]

nige1, on Sep 22 2009, 08:38 PM, said:

Over RHO's 2♦...
2♥ = 2 (Gross underbid).
...
Now, after LHO's 3♦ ...
3♥ = 9 (And hope that partner does not pass when game is on);

2♥ over 2♦ would be forcing. 3♥ over 3♦ sounds forcing too.

[ArtK78]

I can't imagine that 3♥ could be passed. RHO has clearly psyched his 1NT overcall. His partner, who did not run from 1NTx, raised the 2♦ bid to 3♦. He is not broke, which means that the 1NT overcall was a psyche. Partner can work that out.

I would have passed over 2♦ (forcing) and then bid 3♥ (forcing).

[nigel_k]

3♥. Double now would not be penalty but I still don't like it with three spades and five hearts. 3♥ suggests a hand pretty close to what I have.

I would also play the double of 2♦ as takeout.

[nige1]

nige1, on Sep 22 2009, 08:38 PM, said:

Over RHO's 2♦...
2♥ = 2 (Gross underbid).
...
Now, after LHO's 3♦ ...
3♥ = 9 (And hope that partner does not pass when game is on);

gnasher, on Sep 22 2009, 02:46 PM, said:

2♥ over 2♦ would be forcing.  3♥ over 3♦ sounds forcing too.

IMO, it's a matter of style. It seems that many BBOers subscribe to Gnasher's theory but I prefer ...

• After partner has opened, you may double 1N on as few as 8 HCP, provided that you have a good lead.
  
• Your double of 1N creates a near forcing pass context: ie neither partner nor you may pass out an opponent's contract, undoubled. (Well, perhaps there may be rare auctions where you would pass but then you would have explaining to do).
  
• Subsequent suit bids by you are constructive but not forcing because 8 HCP may not be enough opposite an opening bid, to guarantee game.

[pooltuna]

ArtK78, on Sep 22 2009, 03:00 PM, said:

I can't imagine that 3♥ could be passed. RHO has clearly psyched his 1NT overcall. His partner, who did not run from 1NTx, raised the 2♦ bid to 3♦. He is not broke, which means that the 1NT overcall was a psyche. Partner can work that out.

I would have passed over 2♦ (forcing) and then bid 3♥ (forcing).

So you cannot imagine a hand that would make a penalty X of 1NT yet just be invitational strength for 3♥. So what are you to do when you have that hand? Pass?

[Fluffy]

in retrospect I should had downgraded ♦Q and bid 3♥, but I felt in the mood of playing game and bid a nonsense 4♥.

Full hand its not so relevant, RHO had psyched 1NT, and partner forgot to double 3♦ with ♦AKx with would gather +800. 4♥ was quickly doubled by LHO and went 1 off. 3NT maybe making maybe not.