[benlessard]

Scoring: IMP

---

4S all pass.

wich is worse opening 4S or passing 4S ?

No need to tell you it wasnt us.

[gnasher]

I think the North hand too strong for a 4♠ opening, but it's a bit unlucky to find partner with a hand where you can make slam.

Passing 4♠ is normal and obvious - the five level isn't safe, and there's no great likelihood of a slam anyway.

[Fluffy]

I wouldn't say obvious Andy, partner is vulnerable, "just" the club ace gives us easy 12 tricks, and althou we do not have 5 level safety, 5 spades cannot be a hopeless contract either.

Having 3 spades suggests partner might be 7-4, that is great whatever his suit.

Hard not to be biased, maybe I would pass at the table, but I lead forward to an agressive 4NT.

What is the correct answer to blackwood with north's hand? LOL

[neilkaz]

North has way to much potential, IMHO, to open 4♠ he can make a slam opposite very little if there's any help at all in ♦.

Owning the boss suit I just start with 1♠.

South could bid on, however, but opposite normal preempts his K of ♦ is often useless and his K of ♣ maybe useless and perhaps there is a ♥ loser. All that does seem pessimistic, and the 5 level is likely safe, but a normal 4♠ preempt likely won't have what is needed for slam, IMHO, but if 4♠ can be this wide ranging maybe he should try for slam.

[nigel_k]

I would pass with South. Slam is good opposite KQxxxxxx x xx Ax but there are plenty of hands with two key cards where it's not great, and you could do down at the five level. If partner is liable to open 4♠ on a wide range of hands, the odds might be with bidding though.

I can't claim any vast depth of experience in bidding hands with two voids, but would open at the one level with North.

[Phil]

When you play a grand slam in game, there's a good chance both partners did something wrong and this is the case.

[Lobowolf]

Phil, on Aug 19 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

When you play a grand slam in game, there's a good chance both partners did something wrong and this is the case.

HAHAHAHA. Great general rule.

[Cascade]

It depends on your standards for 4♠.

While the shape is extreme this isn't that strong for us. That is not to say that I think it is necessarily best.

Given that I would move with the south hand expecting between 8 and 9 tricks opposite. Blackwood looks like the right move.

If your standards for 4♠ are weaker then PASS is ok and 4♠ less good.

One problem with 4♠ on this is that after 4NT say by an opponent or a five-level bid there are many hands where you belong in 5♠ or higher and partner won't move.

[kennye]

Opening 4S on an 8-5 hand with good spaes and diamnd ac is insanity You can always outbid everybody and you shut out partner on many hnds tht produce sla. I would open a strong 2C before I ould open 4S!

[rbforster]

kennye, on Aug 19 2009, 08:53 PM, said:

I would open a strong 2C before I ould open 4S!

...only 3 losers, after all. who says you need enough defense if partner doubles if they bid over your strong 2♣, you weren't sitting for it anyway.

[the hog]

Rob F, on Aug 20 2009, 11:25 AM, said:

kennye, on Aug 19 2009, 08:53 PM, said:

I would open a strong 2C before I ould open 4S!

...only 3 losers, after all. who says you need enough defense if partner doubles if they bid over your strong 2♣, you weren't sitting for it anyway.

And this is the rub with these silly 2C openings isn't it? Partner trusts your bidding and thinks you have the goods to beat a contract; you don't, so you pull. All this makes for great partnership bridge!

[rd6789]

Well I'm in the 'opening 4S is daft' camp - I play 4S is a preempt.... this hand has way too much potential.

As south I would pass a 4S opener playing v my regular partners as I am certain North won't have KQ to 8 and an Ace - too strong

[helene_t]

Does 4♠ in principle deny a first-round control in a side suit? Maybe, but absent such an agreement, South must figure that North is likely to have a first-round control somewhere since his spades can't be that good. Maybe North ought to a 8311 or 9211 shape. Otherwise South gets part of the blame.

But a vulnerable preemt with two voids goes too far IMHO. So most of the blame to North.

[ArtK78]

The 4♠ opening can best be classified as a psyche. It might work, but it isn't a proper description of the hand.

South might move on his hand, but, on a bad day, he could be turning a plus into a minus. Partner could have:

KQTxxxxxx
x
x
xx

or

KQTxxxxxx
xx
x
x

These hands are legitimate 4♠ opening bids.

[pooltuna]

benlessard, on Aug 19 2009, 04:45 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

4S all pass.

wich is worse opening 4S or passing 4S ?

No need to tell you it wasnt us.

I think opening 4♠ is slightly worse than passing 4♠ and not that opening 4♠ won't work well fairly often. I would have preferred to open 1♠ and rebid 4 to show a better hand than a direct 4♠

[gwnn]

IMO:

N:

4S: 0
something else: 10

S:

_P: 10
Bid on: 5

Eschew obfuscation.

[benlessard]

When asked about the hand i said that i would have opened 4D namyats, if not i could choose both ways and find 4S OK even if I know that most will consider it a 1M automatic. Ive said that ill never pass with south hand. And that since north is unlikely to have a stiff diamonds going down in 5 is highly unlikely while making 6 is a clear possibility.

When my partner was asked he basically said the same thing.


We prefer to open 4M as much as i can. From 4 to 6 losers.

AKJTxxxx with a side A (or many 4 losers) will be considered too strong for most of you, but im willing to miss some slams if my chance of playing 4M is increased compared to open 1 and be forced to make a 5 level decision after they find a defensive fit.


I keep a good look on hands where 1M is opened at one table and 4 at the other. A so far its a win for "heavy preempts" vs "shapely openings". So i dont think ill be changing my style anytime soon. Of course one of the downside is to be "forced" to open 3 instead of 4 some 7 losers hands.

But at the end what matters most is partnership agreement.

[WesleyC]

IMO: opening the north hand 4S (rather than 1S) will lose you an average of about 5 IMPs a board...

[FrancesHinden]

I think a 4S opening vulnerable should show a decent hand.

But opening 4S with three outside first round controls is waaaay too much for me.

Whether the South hand should move over 4S is an interesting question, I think it's close, but pass is probably right.

[MarceldB]

benlessard, on Aug 20 2009, 03:38 PM, said:

We prefer to open 4M as much as i can. From 4 to 6 losers.

I prefer to preempt too but in my system with a more descriptive bid regarding
shape and HCP

3NT - 4♣
5♠ - 7♠
Pass

3NT= 7-9 HCP, 5+/6+ ♠/♦ v.v.
4♣= positive relay
5♠= 8=0=5=0, and a pure good maximum
7♠= must be K♠ + AQ♦ or KQ♠+A♦

Relayer, if needed , can ask with
5NT= how are your high honours A+K+Q divided?

6♣= 2♦ hon. + 1♠ hon.
6♦= AKQ♦
6♥=2♠ hon.+ 1♦ hon.
6♠= AKQ♠

For the sake of good order:
posted this just to show you that within the framework of a Weak Opening System
it is important that the openings describe more then: 1 have this suit and this pointrange, to help partner, who is automatically the relayer, with his decisions.

Regards,
Marcel