[655321]

I have played (and quite like) that Opener's cue bid below 2NT does not promise strength. Playing that style, opener would rebid 2♥ with a stopperless 4342 13 count.

[gnasher]

uday, on Aug 5 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

I think I'm hearing gnasher say that 2N is the correct rebid on balanced hands, with or without a stop in the enemy suit?

I'm not saying that rebidding 2NT on all weak notrumps is standard. Nor am I saying that you should bid 2NT if your agreements say that you should bid 2♠.

What I am saying is that it is better to agree to bid 2NT on all weak notrumps than either (a) agreeing to rebid 2♠ on a balanced hand or (b) agreeing to rebid 2♦ with only four cards.

I'm also saying that I don't see much benefit to agreeing that you can rebid 2♠ on a 4342 13-count, and I'd be interested to see some pairs of hands where having that agreement helps you to get to the right contract.

[rd6789]

gnasher, on Aug 5 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

What I am saying is that it is better to agree to bid 2NT on all weak notrumps than either (a) agreeing to rebid 2♠ on a balanced hand or ( agreeing to rebid 2♦ with only four cards.

why not bid 3♣ if you are balanced and haven't got a stop in opps suit - after all partner forced you to bid and must be able to cope with that hand - with nothing in their suit maybe you have to play in club partial as your only making option even with 25+ if they have 5 hearts to cash. [not on this hand obviously]

[ArtK78]

Jlall, on Aug 4 2009, 10:32 PM, said:

3H stopper ask. Too strong for 3C.

There is nothing more to add, except that 3♣ is not forcing in most 2/1 partnerships on this auction.

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on Aug 5 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

uday, on Aug 5 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

I think I'm hearing gnasher say that 2N is the correct rebid on balanced hands, with or without a stop in the enemy suit?

I'm not saying that rebidding 2NT on all weak notrumps is standard. Nor am I saying that you should bid 2NT if your agreements say that you should bid 2♠.

What I am saying is that it is better to agree to bid 2NT on all weak notrumps than either (a) agreeing to rebid 2♠ on a balanced hand or ( agreeing to rebid 2♦ with only four cards.

I'm also saying that I don't see much benefit to agreeing that you can rebid 2♠ on a 4342 13-count, and I'd be interested to see some pairs of hands where having that agreement helps you to get to the right contract.

I'd go further than gnasher.

I would say that a lot of people rebid 2NT on all weak NTs here, with or without a heart stop, to the extent that although this may not be 'standard' it is sufficiently common - at least round here - to make no meaning of 2NT 'standard'

I agree that I can't see how bidding 2S on some minimum 4-4 is going to help matters.

[Jlall]

I had never heard of this concept of rebidding 2N with all wk NTs regardless of stopper. Seems to have merit though, thanks for sharing.

[Fluffy]

I would rebid 2♦ with the weak NT hands, even on 3 cards, but that its just me I guess.

Would like to be able to rebid 2NT with weak NT hands on 1♣-(1♠)-2♥ hands.

[ONEferBRID]

I'm in the stop-ask camp.
3H!

[barryallen]

gnasher, on Aug 5 2009, 07:19 AM, said:

uday, on Aug 5 2009, 01:05 PM, said:

Quote

2♠ should show extras

That probably isn't playable, unless you also play that

1D-1H-2C-P
2D

could be on 4 (and is the catch-all rebid for opener when he can't rebid 2N).

A better approach is to rebid 2NT on all weak notrumps that don't have five diamonds or club support. Then 2♦ can promise five, 2♠ can promise shape and extras, and 3♣ can promise real support. The downside is that sometime we reach 2NT without a heart stop, but when they haven't raised hearts that's a fairly rare occurrence.

In any case, I don't see how it helps to be able to rebid 2♠ on a 4342 13-count. If responder doesn't have six clubs, doesn't have enough for game, and doesn't have a heart stop, what is he supposed to bid? Whatever he does, I don't see why that should be better than being in 2NT from opener's side.

I would not play 2♣ in that sequence as GF. As such, you then have the additional bid of PASS as part of your descriptive responses?

I am curious for anyone bidding 3♥ over the original sequence as to how they differentiate between a partial and full stop?

[pooltuna]

barryallen, on Aug 8 2009, 04:51 AM, said:

gnasher, on Aug 5 2009, 07:19 AM, said:

uday, on Aug 5 2009, 01:05 PM, said:

Quote

2♠ should show extras

That probably isn't playable, unless you also play that

1D-1H-2C-P
2D

could be on 4 (and is the catch-all rebid for opener when he can't rebid 2N).

A better approach is to rebid 2NT on all weak notrumps that don't have five diamonds or club support. Then 2♦ can promise five, 2♠ can promise shape and extras, and 3♣ can promise real support. The downside is that sometime we reach 2NT without a heart stop, but when they haven't raised hearts that's a fairly rare occurrence.

In any case, I don't see how it helps to be able to rebid 2♠ on a 4342 13-count. If responder doesn't have six clubs, doesn't have enough for game, and doesn't have a heart stop, what is he supposed to bid? Whatever he does, I don't see why that should be better than being in 2NT from opener's side.

I would not play 2♣ in that sequence as GF. As such, you then have the additional bid of PASS as part of your descriptive responses?

I am curious for anyone bidding 3♥ over the original sequence as to how they differentiate between a partial and full stop?

simple; no agreement=full stop.

[jakob_r]

i'm with gnasher. allowing opener to rebid 2NT with all weak hands with or without a stopper makes a lot more sense than the virtually useless 2S rebid not promising extras.

[gordontd]

uday, on Aug 5 2009, 02:11 PM, said:

Quote

I don't see how it helps to be able to rebid 2♠ on a 4342 13-count

without a stop in the enemy suit, opener would like to avoid the 2N rebid.

Well, you still have a problem with 3442 with four small hearts unless you can bid 2NT.

[rd6789]

jakob_r, on Aug 8 2009, 07:28 AM, said:

i'm with gnasher. allowing opener to rebid 2NT with all weak hands with or without a stopper makes a lot more sense than the virtually useless 2S rebid not promising extras.

great if you awant to get to 3nt with them cashing the first 5 or 6 heart tricks - they told you they had hearts and you ignored them - with akqjx of hearts I expect I'll find the lead.

why not 3♣ - minimum no heart stop nothing else to bid

[gnasher]

Playing the style where 2NT doesn't promise a heart stop, responder can bid 3♥ over 2NT to ask for one. What you lose by this style is
- Sometimes playing 2NT without a heart stop
- Not being able to bid ...2NT-3♥ to show whatever it normally shows.

Is that really so bad that you prefer to have to bid 3♣ on both a 4342 shape and a 3154 shape?

[cherdanno]

gnasher, on Aug 10 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

Playing the style where 2NT doesn't promise a heart stop, responder can bid 3♥ over 2NT to ask for one. What you lose by this style is
- Sometimes playing 2NT without a heart stop
- Not being able to bid ...2NT-3♥ to show whatever it normally shows.

Is that really so bad that you prefer to have to bid 3♣ on both a 4342 shape and a 3154 shape?

I already have a bid for 3154 bid, 3♥!
Having said that, I really like the idea of bidding 2N with many weak NTs.