[mike777]

1h=1nt
(3minor)=what does 3h rebid by responder now show compared to 4h rebid by responder?

[ONEferBRID]

1M - 1NTF
3m - ??
.......... 3M = minimum response; could be as few as 2 cards M
......... 4M = limit raise w/ 3 cards M; a hand that would have jumped to 3M
................. over a minimum rebid of 2m by Opener.

[kenrexford]

Does anyone play "sort of Bart" here?

[Deevan]

kenrexford, on Aug 5 2009, 11:39 AM, said:

Does anyone play "sort of Bart" here?

3H=minimum, may be bid with 2 card support.
4H= constructive to limit; but not good enough to Advance-Cue 3S or 4C.
?=need an agreement to describe a hand with prime values; a hand that improved after hearing opener's two bids?

I would like to hear how the soB concept works here?

[awm]

Honestly this is one of the worst sequences in uncontested 2/1 GF auctions. The three-card limit raise offers substantial slam chances opposite opener's game-forcing jump shift, yet showing the limit raise requires a jump to the game level which consumes a great deal of the available space for exploration. This method also seems to violate the "fast arrival" approach of 2/1 where jumping directly to game shows a worse hand for slam than exploring slowly.

It seems possible to use a cheap three-level call to show a hand with no clear direction. In particular on the auction 1♥-1NT-3m, an otherwise-meaningless 3♠ bid could be used as "do something intelligent" allowing 3♥ to show the limit raise with real support. Since I play either Gazzilli or a strong club in pretty much all my serious partnerships these days, I can't really comment on the efficacy of this approach.

[Deevan]

awm, on Aug 5 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

Honestly this is one of the worst sequences in uncontested 2/1 GF auctions. The three-card limit raise offers substantial slam chances opposite opener's game-forcing jump shift, yet showing the limit raise requires a jump to the game level which consumes a great deal of the available space for exploration. This method also seems to violate the "fast arrival" approach of 2/1 where jumping directly to game shows a worse hand for slam than exploring slowly.

It seems possible to use a cheap three-level call to show a hand with no clear direction. In particular on the auction 1♥-1NT-3m, an otherwise-meaningless 3♠ bid could be used as "do something intelligent" allowing 3♥ to show the limit raise with real support. Since I play either Gazzilli or a strong club in pretty much all my serious partnerships these days, I can't really comment on the efficacy of this approach.

This is for sure a problematic area in 2/1 GF auctions. The problem might even start with the 1NT(F), or the 3D bid; rather than just the principle of fast arrival IMO.

Without any advanced agreement; e.g. does the 3D bid promise a 5 card suit; or is it showing 3+ GF values? I believe Meckstroth has some recommendations on this issue; as well, there are others who have developed more effective treatments.

The 1NT(F) seems to cover a wide range from "a possible misfit with 6 HCPs" to "limit raise in M"! Again, one needs, I think, more advanced agreements.

[mike777]

This auction came up in the finals of the Spingold. Sontag and Helness had a mix up. Helness rebid 3h with the 3 card limit raise hand, Sontag thought that was a 4 h rebid. In any event they were not playing some sort of advanced methods here.

[nigel_k]

I'd suggest a single raise of a major being a good 6 to a bad 10 and respond 1NT on weaker hands with three card support, otherwise the single raise covers too wide a range. In that case the jump to 4M here is that weaker hand.

With the three card support limit raise hands you either cue bid or bid 3M and catch up later. That is a bit awkward but probably no worse than consuming space with a jump to 4M.

[ONEferBRID]

Some play a new suit ( especially on the 4-level) as an Advance Cuebid ( as has been mentioned by Deevan ).
[ Why else introduce a new suit when partner has shown a strong 2-suiter?].
But an advance cue for which suit ?
I play it as an advance cuebid for Opener's 2nd suit, and the 4M limit raise bid for the 1st suit.
[ Yes, 4M does take up space, doesn't it ... and the 4M bid has been deemed to NOT be a fast arrival situation by modern standards .
the weaker 3M allows opener to set the final contract, which may be 3NT. ]

Some play the Advance Cuebid for "either" of partner's suits with the finally contract to be "pass or correct" by Responder.

[rbforster]

ONEferBRID, on Aug 5 2009, 04:47 PM, said:

Some play a new suit ( especially on the 4-level) as an Advance Cuebid ( as has been mentioned by Deevan ).
[ Why else introduce a new suit when partner has shown a strong 2-suiter?]. 

Because sometimes opener has a game forcing hand that doesn't want to rebid 3M or 4M. You'll get plenty of experts rebidding (1♥-1X-)3♣ with Ax AQxxxx Ax AKx, so it's not like opener promises a second suit. Sure he'll usually have 3 of them, but there's a big difference between being 6=3 or even 7=2 in your suits and promising 5/5+ "a big 2 suiter".

[peachy]

4H is the limit raise with good 3-card support. 3H is "everything else" with 2 or more hearts, including weak false preference and limit raises that have fitting clubs and/or control rich max. I have this agreement with the partners I have agreements with. In 2/1 where 1NT is forcing and includes hands that in SAYC or similar systems might not bid 1NT, fast arrival does not apply after 1NTF response.

Even with uncertainty or no agreement about meanings of 3H and 4H, opener's minor should not be raised except with a singleton or void in hearts or with a hand that wants to be in 5m or 6m opposite potential three-carder with opener. The JS might be manufactured for lack of a better bid (like Axx-AKJxxx-x-AKx).

[ONEferBRID]

peachy, on Aug 9 2009, 05:14 AM, said:

4H is the limit raise with good 3-card support. 3H is "everything else" with 2 or more hearts, including weak false preference and limit raises that have fitting clubs and/or control rich max.  I have this agreement with the partners I have agreements with.  In 2/1 where 1NT is forcing and includes hands  that in SAYC or similar systems might not bid 1NT, fast arrival does not apply after 1NTF response.

Even with uncertainty or no agreement about meanings of 3H and 4H, opener's minor should not be raised except with a singleton or void in hearts or with a hand that wants to be in 5m or 6m opposite potential three-carder with opener. The JS might be manufactured for lack of a better bid (like Axx-AKJxxx-x-AKx).

You said it a lot better than I did.

- - Don - -