[awm]

How much cheating is there in top-flight bridge?

I'd prefer to focus on big open events rather than the smaller championships, so something like the ACBL's Blue Ribbon Pairs or the WBF's World Open Pairs. These events have more players who are not "big names" and are also subject to less close supervision than things like the Bermuda Bowl.

By "intentional" cheating I mean to exclude things like abusing UI that you don't know you have, or being uncertain about the alert regulations etc.

[Phil]

There's cheating (like talking to your buddy about Board 14 in the head) and there's 'soft cheating' like taking advantage of your partner's slow double against unwitting opponents. Or accepting your opponent's incorrect claim in your favor. Then there's very subtle types of cheating, like knowing your partner's tendencies with cardplay and the 'way' a card is played and picking up clues from that.

I think 'cheating' is pretty rare (maybe one pair at an NABC might be engaging in this). The racecars were rumored for sometime to be cheating. A western pro I know referred to them as the "Cheating Italians" before Tenerife. But it probably happens.

Different types of soft cheating happen a lot unfortunately. I'd say there are more than 10% of the players that engage in this activity, knowingly or not.

[TimG]

Does this include things like not reporting to the director when you have overheard a result or bit of information from an adjacent table?

[Jlall]

Way more abuse of subtle UI goes on than people think, way more stuff like watching where your opp pulls their card goes on than people think, way more stuff like overhearing something about a board or seeing your opps scorecard goes on, but I still think that blatant dirty cheating is pretty rare.

I'm sure many people would be shocked at how much of this stuff their favorite hero does.

The thing is, if you are a top player you can make a lot of money from bridge without jeopardizing your career by cheating. And if you're not a top player and you're outright cheating you will simply get caught at some point. But you CAN get away with the other stuff, and people in general do what they can get away with.

This is one reason I hate bridge. Playing it honest really puts you at a disadvantage, and that's a fact.

[qwery_hi]

Jlall, on Jun 25 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

Way more abuse of subtle UI goes on than people think, way more stuff like watching where your opp pulls their card goes on than people think, way more stuff like overhearing something about a board or seeing your opps scorecard goes on, but I still think that blatant dirty cheating is pretty rare.

I'm sure many people would be shocked at how much of this stuff their favorite hero does.

The thing is, if you are a top player you can make a lot of money from bridge without jeopardizing your career by cheating. And if you're not a top player and you're outright cheating you will simply get caught at some point. But you CAN get away with the other stuff, and people in general do what they can get away with.

This is one reason I hate bridge. Playing it honest really puts you at a disadvantage, and that's a fact.

I hear you. Unfortunately, I'm addicted.

[matmat]

Jlall, on Jun 25 2009, 02:16 PM, said:

This is one reason I hate bridge. Playing it honest really puts you at a disadvantage, and that's a fact.

so it's a bit like baseball.

[Phil]

matmat, on Jun 25 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 25 2009, 02:16 PM, said:

This is one reason I hate bridge. Playing it honest really puts you at a disadvantage, and that's a fact.

so it's a bit like baseball.

If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying.

        - Jim Rome

[xcurt]

Jlall, on Jun 25 2009, 02:16 PM, said:

Way more abuse of subtle UI goes on than people think, way more stuff like watching where your opp pulls their card goes on than people think, way more stuff like overhearing something about a board or seeing your opps scorecard goes on, but I still think that blatant dirty cheating is pretty rare.

It really pays to develop countermeasures to this type of thing. Sort your hand differently on different hands. Fold up your hand between every card. This also helps induce a slight delay while you fan one or two cards out to get the one you want.

Unfortunately there isn't much you can do about the scorecard thing unless everyone adopts countermeasures, but it helps to score all the results in the same column, small, in as-played order, not board number order.

[the hog]

I only came across this once and I won't mention names as the person is now dead.
Slotting. Playing against this person, you either had 8 suits, or held your hand under the table.

[gnasher]

xcurt, on Jun 26 2009, 01:10 AM, said:

It really pays to develop countermeasures to this type of thing.

How do you know? Have you tested it?

An effective test would be quite laborious. You'd have to play for a fairly long time in two similar fields, using countermeasures in one and not in the other, then analyse how good the opponents' card-reading was.

[H_KARLUK]

Barometer format stops gossips and braggers during intervals. Tho I know most of them warn each other honestly "hey not a good time to ask an idea or comment, yet might not play the hand".
Last weekend righty called TD. P opened 1D; he jumped 4H with stop card. There were no alert. Really what would be the difference if alerted or did not use stop card.
I also used stop card and bid 4S. At that moment TD invited by overcaller.
His theory based upon UI. Td refused.
I did contract doubled by lefty. Then he went to TD desk. Nothing changed.
During smoke break I heard he was complaining to someone. I doubt any law is violated by our side.
Next round was :

Scoring: MP

---

After North's 3C overcall it was not hard for me to find 10 tricks in 3NT. CA; then D ducked, played a S. When South raised with Q I ducked.
Again TD invited. Again it's decided "board legal". Some of the tables in room were watching with curious eyes. I didn't get the reasoning of such an allergy. Sorry, I think no need hard feelings. Let TD decide. It's their duty to conduct live events in a fair way.

[Jlall]

xcurt, on Jun 25 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 25 2009, 02:16 PM, said:

Way more abuse of subtle UI goes on than people think, way more stuff like watching where your opp pulls their card goes on than people think, way more stuff like overhearing something about a board or seeing your opps scorecard goes on, but I still think that blatant dirty cheating is pretty rare.

It really pays to develop countermeasures to this type of thing. Sort your hand differently on different hands. Fold up your hand between every card. This also helps induce a slight delay while you fan one or two cards out to get the one you want.

Unfortunately there isn't much you can do about the scorecard thing unless everyone adopts countermeasures, but it helps to score all the results in the same column, small, in as-played order, not board number order.

I agree, everyone good that I've kibitzed at least puts their key honors in the middle of a side suit, or breaks up their long suit into 2 suits or something to avoid this. Hell, Hamman doesn't even sort his cards.

[Fluffy]

Everyone knows Buratti-Lanzarotti won Cavendish not so long ago. Their friend Ventin got third position that same year.

How did Buratti and Lanzarotti manage to cheat through the screens is something nobody I've talked to knows.

Everyone knew they were cheating for years, yet nobody did anything about it. Even after they were "caught" and penaliced, they still get hired!.

The real problem is: Cheating in bridge is worth it, because the downside of being caught is minimal (probably on most sports also)

[H_KARLUK]

Fluffy, on Jun 26 2009, 05:53 AM, said:

Everyone knows Buratti-Lanzarotti won Cavendish not so long ago. Their friend Ventin got third position that same year.

How did Buratti and Lanzarotti manage to cheat through the screens is something nobody I've talked to knows.

Everyone knew they were cheating for years, yet nobody did anything about it. Even after they were "caught" and penaliced, they still get hired!.

The real problem is: Cheating in bridge is worth it, because the downside of being caught is minimal (probably on most sports also)

Hola Gonzalo

If my memory serves correct were not there or somewhere in another event also some organizators caught while exchanging special product electronic playing cards readable with special lenses for benefit of that pair?

Your spot is fine. On the other hand their system card is also fine. (Nightmare)

ps. I sincerely hope you won't think that I need to advocate. To me 'fairplay' is a 'must'. Any form of cheating is absolutely illegal and unethical. Perhaps sometimes must is a hard nut to crack for such crazy crew

[the hog]

H_KARLUK, on Jun 26 2009, 04:56 PM, said:

If my memory serves correct were not there or somewhere in another event also some organizators caught while exchanging special product electronic playing cards readable with special lenses for benefit of that pair?

You have been reading too many science fiction books, matey!

[JoAnneM]

This is probably silly to bring up, but I will ask anyway. A few years ago I attended a seminar at a tournament where the speaker advocated holding your cards under the table during bidding and play. She said this would increase your scores by at least 5%.

At a tournament shortly after this was challenged when a director was called to a table for the complaint that "the player is holding his cards below the table". The director said that all cards must be above the table and in full sight.

I can't imagine what was going on at this table that would precipitate such a call but the "offender" came to me later with the story. I assured him he could hold his cards anyway he wanted as long as his partner couldn't see them, but as usual I can't find anything in the Laws, where some you might.

[jdonn]

I always hold my cards under the table, I know of no law against it, anyone who calls the director about it is an idiot, and it's a totally ridiculous assertion that doing so will increase your scores by 5%. I think that's everything.

[helene_t]

Assuming that p is just as likely to slot me as either of opps are, it probably doesn't affect my results much. Maybe p is more likely to know that I don't sort my cards, so being slotted could be a nett advantage.

Anyway I don't think many people slot but I could be wrong.

[JoAnneM]

jdonn, on Jun 26 2009, 05:07 PM, said:

I always hold my cards under the table, I know of no law against it, anyone who calls the director about it is an idiot, and it's a totally ridiculous assertion that doing so will increase your scores by 5%. I think that's everything.

Good, I didn't think much of that seminar anyway.

[MFA]

I don't think much cheating is going on. I always sort completely by suits and rank and mostly hold my hand above the table. I think that high-level competition is quite clean, also when it comes to UI.
Call me naive. But I'd rather be naive than paranoic.