[gnasher]

MFA, on Jun 26 2009, 10:48 PM, said:

I always sort completely by suits and rank and mostly hold my hand above the table.

Me too. I suspect that not having my hand completely sorted would cost me about 5%.

[jdonn]

I think cynical is a better description than paranoid. Paranoid would be thinking each individual opponents is looking. Cynical is just knowing that a lot of this stuff goes on. To me holding your hand below the table is a simple solution and much easier than sorting your cards out of order (a lot friendlier for kibitzers too) but of course it may be different for everyone.

[matmat]

jdonn, on Jun 26 2009, 04:57 PM, said:

I think cynical is a better description than paranoid. Paranoid would be thinking each individual opponents is looking. Cynical is just knowing that a lot of this stuff goes on. To me holding your hand below the table is a simple solution and much easier than sorting your cards out of order (a lot friendlier for kibitzers too) but of course it may be different for everyone.

you could also hold your cards folded up and sometimes fan them out with your left hand, sometimes with your right... but that opens up another can-o-worms...

[xcurt]

gnasher, on Jun 26 2009, 02:08 AM, said:

xcurt, on Jun 26 2009, 01:10 AM, said:

It really pays to develop countermeasures to this type of thing.

How do you know? Have you tested it?

An effective test would be quite laborious. You'd have to play for a fairly long time in two similar fields, using countermeasures in one and not in the other, then analyse how good the opponents' card-reading was.

There's too much noise to do a rigorous study. I have enough anecdotal evidence to believe that clocking (slotting, what have you) is not uncommon, though. I'm not naming any names, but I have caught people staring at things they should not be staring at when I'm dummy.

[JoAnneM]

People might think I am staring, but I actually cannot see the cards in my RHO or LHO's hands. I am probably just deep in thought.

[jillybean]

UI? Isn’t this why high-level games are played behind screens?

[qwery_hi]

jillybean2, on Jun 26 2009, 03:47 PM, said:

UI? Isn’t this why high-level games are played behind screens?

I think OP was talking about initial rounds of high level competitions where there are no screens. Subtle UI through screens would probably require ESP, investigating it would need Mulder and Scully.

[mtvesuvius]

FWIW, I do occaisionally find myself glancing at where my opponents cards come from, and have made a few contracts from that... but I really try not to. I personally keep my cards under the table, and only sort by suits... It seems to work well enough.

[TimG]

jillybean2, on Jun 26 2009, 06:47 PM, said:

UI? Isn’t this why high-level games are played behind screens?

On the second day of NABC Pair events screens are not used. As I recall, they aren't used on Day 2 of the Open BAM either. I don't know how many screens ACBL has, but think that is generally a limiting factor in these NABC events.

[kenrexford]

Sometimes Declarer needs to guess the location of the queen. When I know this to be the case, it is easy to sort the hand such that this suit is all the way to the left end of my hand, except for the Queen, which is elsewhere. Every time I have done this (out of curiosity) and then put my hand in Declarer's sight, Declarer played my partner for the Queen.

So, the peek and counter of the peek is real.

Of course, no one should fall for this, because I also sit with my hand below the table at all times -- sorting, bidding, and play. So, if I suddenly lean forward and place my elbows on the table, this is a "how dumb are you coup."

[TimG]

kenrexford, on Jun 26 2009, 08:28 PM, said:

Sometimes Declarer needs to guess the location of the queen. When I know this to be the case, it is easy to sort the hand such that this suit is all the way to the left end of my hand, except for the Queen, which is elsewhere. Every time I have done this (out of curiosity) and then put my hand in Declarer's sight, Declarer played my partner for the Queen.

So, the peek and counter of the peek is real.

Of course, no one should fall for this, because I also sit with my hand below the table at all times -- sorting, bidding, and play. So, if I suddenly lean forward and place my elbows on the table, this is a "how dumb are you coup."

You forgot the smileys; someone is going to take you seriously.

[the hog]

jdonn, on Jun 27 2009, 12:07 AM, said:

I always hold my cards under the table, I know of no law against it, anyone who calls the director about it is an idiot, and it's a totally ridiculous assertion that doing so will increase your scores by 5%. I think that's everything.

Agree totally with Josh's comments here.

[the hog]

qwery_hi, on Jun 27 2009, 07:01 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Jun 26 2009, 03:47 PM, said:

UI? Isn’t this why high-level games are played behind screens?

I think OP was talking about initial rounds of high level competitions where there are no screens. Subtle UI through screens would probably require ESP, investigating it would need Mulder and Scully.

This doesn't stop slotting or peeking.

[FrancesHinden]

When the duplimate machine deals a hand from a virgin pack, the hand comes out in order except that aces are 'low'. So you can count how many aces everyone at the table has by the number of cards they move in their hands when they look at them.

This has become sufficiently well known that after the first couple of days in San Remo they finally got round to shuffling the packs slightly before dealing. Either that, or they had used up all the new packs.

This 'feature' has another effect. There was a hand early in the mixed teams where I sorted my hand and I had

x
J421
Q10x
AKQJx

I opened 1C
Partner responded 1H (showing spades)
I had a minimum opening bid and rebid 2C
Partner bid 2D (natural(ish), forcing for a round)
I suddenly realised that in fact I had

x
AJ42
Q10x
AKQJx

and should have reversed last round.

This made the rest of the auction a little odd (luckily partner had quite a lot to spare and we ended in the normal 6NT with about 15 tricks but an ace missing)

[Oof Arted]

FrancesHinden, on Jun 27 2009, 05:03 AM, said:

When the duplimate machine deals a hand from a virgin pack, the hand comes out in order except that aces are 'low'.

Is that strictly true Frances

New Virgin packs I have seen/used come in suits one suit ACE up to King Next suit KING down to Ace and then repeated for remaining 2 suits.

[JanM]

Jlall, on Jun 26 2009, 03:46 AM, said:

I agree, everyone good that I've kibitzed at least puts their key honors in the middle of a side suit, or breaks up their long suit into 2 suits or something to avoid this. Hell, Hamman doesn't even sort his cards.

Hamman, at least in the days when I used to kibitz him a lot, actually does sort his cards when he picks them up, looks at them for about a second, then shuffles them and holds them closed for the rest of the bidding and play - it's a real challenge for a kibitzer .

Weichsel, on the other hand, doesn't sort at all. At the recent Trials, he opened 2♠ on a 5323 hand with almost opening bid strength. The Vugraph commentators wondered why, as did I (I was the operator). When the hand was over, someone asked Peter what his shape had been and he said "6322." Then a short discussion occurred about who had the 13th club, and Russ, sitting across the table from me, looked at me - I sort of nodded at Peter, Russ said "he was really 5323?" I nodded. Peter, shocked, argued for a moment, then said "I guess I should start arranging my cards"

My funniest recent experience with how people hold their cards was kibitzing Chip at the Cavendish. I guess I should explain that I virtually never kibitz Chip, because Lew doesn't like kibitzers (the fact that I'm one of the luckiest kibitzers in the world and have been offered money to kibitz, doesn't change that ). He's very careful to hold his hands really close to himself and close them up during the early stages of the bidding (tough on the kibitzer). But then when he starts getting interested in the auction, he often fans his hand out and holds it so anyone who even glanced his way would see it. I guess I've never noticed from across the table, because when an auction gets interesting I'm always looking at my hand and avoiding looking at him. I commented on it and of course he's completely oblivious to what he's doing.

[blackshoe]

Somebody, I remember reading — I think it was either Roth or Stone, probably Roth — used to look at his hand, stick it in his shirt pocket, and not look at it again. During the play, he'd just reach into his pocket and pull out the card he wanted. I'd want to practice that about 8 million times at home before I tried it at the table.

[MFA]

JanM, on Jun 27 2009, 10:08 AM, said:

Weichsel, on the other hand, doesn't sort at all. At the recent Trials, he opened 2♠ on a 5323 hand with almost opening bid strength. The Vugraph commentators wondered why, as did I (I was the operator). When the hand was over, someone asked Peter what his shape had been and he said "6322." Then a short discussion occurred about who had the 13th club, and Russ, sitting across the table from me, looked at me - I sort of nodded at Peter, Russ said "he was really 5323?" I nodded. Peter, shocked, argued for a moment, then said "I guess I should start arranging my cards"

Even for the brainiest of players, if he doesn't sort, he will make mistakes. Seems silly to do that to oneself.

[MFA]

jdonn, on Jun 26 2009, 04:57 PM, said:

I think cynical is a better description than paranoid. Paranoid would be thinking each individual opponents is looking. Cynical is just knowing that a lot of this stuff goes on. To me holding your hand below the table is a simple solution and much easier than sorting your cards out of order (a lot friendlier for kibitzers too) but of course it may be different for everyone.

Luckily for me I have enough frantic card movements, where I fold them and spread them once again, that I doubt that anyone really would be able to infer anything from where I take my card - even if they tried.
But like I said, this thing doesn't worry me at all.

[ovncylmz]

forza lanzarotti-buratti:) forza cheating!