[123ekim]

We play SAYC and 1430, bidding goes

I bid 1S, P bids 2D, I bid 3C, P bids 4NT.

1. Is the 4NT bid a 1430 bid based on club fit?
2. If not, what would be the standard meaning or is this by agreement?

[Tola18]

Yes, it is a 1430. Clubs are preliminary the set suit.


I learned this by an extra twitch. Playing 4 cards majors and similiar auction, my minor-bid showed also the spades were on 5 cards... Thus I was unsure if the RKCB should be on the major.
But my mentor was sure: last bidden suit is the preliminary set suit, ie my minor. Absolut.
No exception.


edit: bidding in my example was of type: 1sp - 2c, 2d



Ps. Another similiar question, is, if the last bid is not suit but some sort of conventional bid. One expert partner of me believed the last bid, either real suit or not, should always be the preliminary set suit on RKCB.
I myself feel otherwise: if the last bid is NOT suit but purely conventional - say Stayman question - it is not RKCB but classical Blackwood on 4 Aces.

[nigel_k]

I'd expect it to be keycard for clubs.

[matmat]

is there a reason you're posting the same question twice?

[aguahombre]

not enough user expertise to determine whether this is Cayuga..same time zone.

[effervesce]

Since you're posting this in adv/exp its quantitative. If you posted in beg/int it would be RKCB.

[FrancesHinden]

effervesce, on Jul 25 2009, 09:24 AM, said:

Since you're posting this in adv/exp its quantitative. If you posted in beg/int it would be RKCB.

Well put.

It is quantitative, showing a hand too good to bid 3NT.
Given that 3C is game forcing in any 'normal' system, if you want to agree clubs, you can raise to 4C. If you want to agree spades you can bid 3S.

[Vilgan]

phew, was thinking I was misunderstanding something with the first few replies suggesting it was RKC. RKC would never have occurred to me... natural/invitational is how I would interpret it with any of my usual partners.

[EricK]

effervesce, on Jul 25 2009, 08:24 AM, said:

Since you're posting this in adv/exp its quantitative. If you posted in beg/int it would be RKCB.

I hate answers like this!

If you assume it is RKB just because the perpetrator is a beginner, or choose to bid it yourself as RKB just because partner is a beginner, then how will a beginner ever learn that this should be quantitative?

Without discussion, the bid is quantitative, and if someone, beginner or not, bids it as RKB without discussion then they have misbid.

[peachy]

effervesce, on Jul 25 2009, 03:24 AM, said:

Since you're posting this in adv/exp its quantitative. If you posted in beg/int it would be RKCB.

Nice! Good reasoning. Playing SAYC with a pickup assume 4NT is always RKC, no matter how little logic there is behind it being a RKC.

[ONEferBRID]

Here is a priority list that I got from a respected expert.... by agreement with partner:

A. If one suit has been supported, it's the key suit.
B. If more than one suit is supported, the 1st agreed suit is key.

C. If NO suit has been supported, the key suit is:
1. The strong 2C bidder's suit.
2. The strong jump shifter's suit.
3. The jump rebidder's suit.
4. The last bid suit.

So in this case:

1S - 2D
3C - 4NT = RKC for Cl

[Phil]

EricK, on Jul 25 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

If you assume it is RKB just because the perpetrator is a beginner, or choose to bid it yourself as RKB just because partner is a beginner, then how will a beginner ever learn that this should be quantitative?

Because its important for a developing player to first recognize what suit key card applies to, and then learn later on that this isn't a key card auction at all, but rather quantitative.

This is how most people learn bridge. I suppose there are prodigal types that can immediately appreciate the need to play auctions like this as quant. but they are few and far between.

[ONEferBRID]

Phil, on Jul 25 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

this isn't a key card auction at all, but rather quantitative.

Neither partner has limited.
Sure, Opener has made a "high reverse", but
pray tell what do you give Responder/Opener in the way of HCP ( or whatever you base your bids on ) to make a "Quantitative " raise here?
What constitutes "extra" here for Opener to accept ?

[matmat]

Phil, on Jul 25 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

EricK, on Jul 25 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

If you assume it is RKB just because the perpetrator is a beginner, or choose to bid it yourself as RKB just because partner is a beginner, then how will a beginner ever learn that this should be quantitative?

Because its important for a developing player to first recognize what suit key card applies to, and then learn later on that this isn't a key card auction at all, but rather quantitative.

This is how most people learn bridge. I suppose there are prodigal types that can immediately appreciate the need to play auctions like this as quant. but they are few and far between.

all 4NT bids are an ace-ask, phil (also, so are all 4♣ bids).

[655321]

Is a prodigal type similar to a callous youth?

[Vilgan]

matmat, on Jul 25 2009, 08:27 PM, said:

Phil, on Jul 25 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

EricK, on Jul 25 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

If you assume it is RKB just because the perpetrator is a beginner, or choose to bid it yourself as RKB just because partner is a beginner, then how will a beginner ever learn that this should be quantitative?

Because its important for a developing player to first recognize what suit key card applies to, and then learn later on that this isn't a key card auction at all, but rather quantitative.

This is how most people learn bridge. I suppose there are prodigal types that can immediately appreciate the need to play auctions like this as quant. but they are few and far between.

all 4NT bids are an ace-ask, phil (also, so are all 4♣ bids).

nm, this is clearly sarcasm. I shouldn't respond when its several hours after I meant to go to bed.

For those saying RKC.. huh? Clearly, finding out partner's keycards triumphs the need for actually conversing with partner about the hand.

[Free]

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=33266

[EricK]

Phil, on Jul 25 2009, 11:16 PM, said:

EricK, on Jul 25 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

If you assume it is RKB just because the perpetrator is a beginner, or choose to bid it yourself as RKB just because partner is a beginner, then how will a beginner ever learn that this should be quantitative?

Because its important for a developing player to first recognize what suit key card applies to, and then learn later on that this isn't a key card auction at all, but rather quantitative.

This is how most people learn bridge. I suppose there are prodigal types that can immediately appreciate the need to play auctions like this as quant. but they are few and far between.

My point is not that they might be a prodigal type who can immediately realise that it should be quantitative, my point is that in order for them to learn that it should be quantitiative, they need to see people play it as quantitative! And because people, by nature, pay more attention to their own auctions than their opponents', this is a perfect time to teach them.

Conversely, if you reinforce people's mistakes it will be harder for them to correct them later.