[jillybean]

Dealer: West Vul: NS Scoring: IMP

♠ 762 ♥ AQ ♦ K84 ♣ KJ532

West North East South

 1♥    1♠    4♥    ?  

[Hanoi5]

Pass?

[ArtK78]

This is where your style dictates the answer to this problem.

So many on this site would overcall 1♠ on so little that this hand is a real problem. You are afraid to double or bid because partner could have KQJxx and out or close to it. So, the nonvul 4♥ bid takes you right out of the auction.

But if your vulnerable overcalls are reasonable, double stands out. Partner knows that you don't have a trump stack from the opps bidding. So you must have values. He will know whether to defend or bid 4♠.

Playing with a human being, I double.

[TimG]

I think 4♠, Double and Pass would all get some consideration, so I don't think the correct action is blatantly obvious.

[Phil]

Pass. This is part of the tariff on playing lighter overcalls.

[helene_t]

I wondered if dbl ought to show something like this. Penalty. or t/o for minors, would not be so frequent.

[karlson]

I would double, I think it's just too good. Biggest downside is if partner pulls, it could easily be to the wrong spot.

[mikeh]

pass, but hating it

which is all the more reason that I would pass in tempo.

this is the kind of hand that generates committees in tournaments... a slow pass or a slow double followed by 'working' action by North.

This could easily be wrong. We might make game. They might make their contract, and sometimes this is a double game swing.

This fear of a double game swing makes bidding game far more palatable than doubling. I would bid game if we swapped the heart Q for the spade Q, and maybe even only the spade J. In fact, ask me tomorrow, and I might bid anyway.

No way, however, do I double and that has nothing to do with Art's rant against light overcallers. For instance... give partner AKQxx x xxx Qxxx....is there a bridge player with a pulse who would not overcall 1♠? And does anyone in their right mind think that they want to defend a doubled heart game?

Obviously, if I thought that such a layout was probable, as opposed to possible, I'd be bidding... we rate to make game on a heart lead.

I currently rate pass as 100, 4♠ as 80 and double as 40... and may well reverse the first two calls.

BTW, altho I think all experts would agree on this, given that this is the B/I forum I will make explicit that my view is that double would be played, by most experts, as 'transferable values'. That is: values sufficient to make it 'our hand'.. the expectation being that partner will pass most times but is permitted to bid with unsual offensive values... our 'transferable' values being useful on both offence and defence. One consequence of this is that we cannot double when we are doing so on the basis of a trump stack... the reason for this is that on these auctions, we will rarely hold a trump stack.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

The alternaive is X, dont bid 4S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[the hog]

Pass. The 1S overcall didn't promise much.

"Biggest downside is if partner pulls, it could easily be to the wrong spot. " Again I don't understand comments like this one. Partner will NOT PULL IT! Do you guys who pull doubles like this play with yourselves?

[Codo]

Kathryn,

you are no beginner, so you should double, accoding to Mikes idae of transferable values.

When you are not sure whether you and your partner have the same idea about this double, support partner.

This is a real tricky situation and 4 spade can lose heavily. But otoh: none of the four players is on solid ground. Given the vulnerability, many opps will bid 5 HEart as an insurance. Few are able to double 4 Spade, as they cannot know the defensive sttrength of partners hand.
So despite the fact that 4 spade is not riskfree, bid it, when you have no double avaiable to show this hand.

But as you can see: There are strong supporters for all three possible bids, so your choice was not as wrong as it seemed to be.

[Fluffy]

pass never crossed my head on this hand but I stand corrected, it must be a serious option.

Partner is also vulnerable vs not for his 1♠ overcall.

For those who passed, should partner bid game himself then?


♠KJ1098x
♥x
♦Q108x
♣KJ


♠7xx
♥AQ
♦Kxx
♣AQxxx


(I know you will say that north should bid 2♠, but I didn't because I though I was TOO strong for that, so add me a Jack or even ♠Q if you wish, or just cosnider any random 12 count with 6 spades)

[vuroth]

Fluffy, on Jul 23 2009, 03:23 AM, said:

♠KJ1098x
♥x
♦Q108x
♣KJ

(I know you will say that north should bid 2♠, but I didn't because I though I was TOO strong for that, so add me a Jack or even ♠Q if you wish, or just cosnider any random 12 count with 6 spades)

Are we talking about a 6-10 HCP range for 2 spades? If so, this seems awfully close.

Granted, it meets the rule of 20, but the defense is weak, and the J♣ is a bit iffy.

Not sure what I'd bid, but I think I can tolerate 1♠ or 2♠ here, while

♠AJT98x
♥x
♦QT8x
♣Ax

Seems like a clear 1♠

[jillybean]

Codo, on Jul 23 2009, 12:35 AM, said:

Kathryn,

you are no beginner, so you should double, accoding to Mikes idae of transferable values.

Heh, the more I learn, the more I realise I am still very much a beginner in this game.

This call was far from obvious to me, Mikes comments are about how experts would play double here. With no history, no agreements I was in a tight spot. Given my partner here is a top class player maybe I should have doubled and let him work it out I chose Pass.

If I had known the overcall style and that 2nd seat V overcalls were reasonable I would have (rightly or wrongly) doubled, happy to let partner make the decision to pull.

[mikeh]

jillybean2, on Jul 23 2009, 10:15 AM, said:

Codo, on Jul 23 2009, 12:35 AM, said:

Kathryn,

you are no beginner, so you should double, accoding to Mikes idae of transferable values.

Heh, the more I learn, the more I realise I am still very much a beginner in this game.

This call was far from obvious to me, Mikes comments are about how experts would play double here. With no history, no agreements I was in a tight spot. Given my partner here is a top class player maybe I should have doubled and let him work it out I chose Pass.

If I had known the overcall style and that 2nd seat V overcalls were reasonable I would have doubled, happy to let partner make the decision to pull.

Kathryn, while Roland seems to agree with my description of transferable value doubles, he and I are worlds apart on this hand. I would NEVER double with this hand. Transferable value doubles are usually left in... partner pulls only with unexpected offensive values... say a 5-5 hand or 6-4 with a good 6 card spade suit. You will not usually hold 3 spades for such a double. To me the risk of it going all pass with 4♥ being cold is too great.

If I felt that the hand belonged to us, I would far rather bid 4♠ than double.

There is merit to the argument that pass will end the auction while double at least preserves chances that partner will pull or that we have a plus on defence. But, imo, he probably won't pull and since we will rarely beat them 2, we need to beat them more often than not for the double to win if we defend... and I don't like our chances that much.

As I anticipated yesterday, my feelings this morning are more in favour of bidding game than passing, but it is close.

[jillybean]

I wasn't saying I was correct in considering a double rather, if I knew 1♠ was sound it is the action I would take.

[ochinko]

FWIW, I'd never double with a fit unless I have already let partner know that we have one.

There is no sense in doubling when having an untold fit no matter whether it's t/o or penalty.

[jillybean]

vuroth, on Jul 23 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Jul 23 2009, 03:23 AM, said:

♠KJ1098x
♥x
♦Q108x
♣KJ

Granted, it meets the rule of 20, but the defense is weak, and the J♣ is a bit iffy.

10HCP + 6♠'s + 4♦'s = 20 and is ok for a 1level Vulnerable overcall?

[ochinko]

jillybean2, on Jul 23 2009, 11:32 PM, said:

vuroth, on Jul 23 2009, 06:37 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Jul 23 2009, 03:23 AM, said:

♠KJ1098x
♥x
♦Q108x
♣KJ

Granted, it meets the rule of 20, but the defense is weak, and the J♣ is a bit iffy.

10HCP + 6♠'s + 4♦'s = 20 and is ok for a 1level Vulnerable overcall?

A decent opening hand has 2+ defensive tricks. This one has half of them (0.5 + 0.5). If you were to open it wouldn't you therefore open 2♠ instead of 1? And if you agree so far, why would you not overcall 2♠ instead of 1, and take it off your chest immediately by letting partner know both your length and your strength?

[Fluffy]

Ochinko, KQJ10xx KJxxxx x doesn't have any defensive trick and everyone will open this at the 1 level.