[badderzboy]

Playing at my local bridge club with a very experienced player I held :-

♠ xxxx
♥ KJxx
♦ xxx
♣ xx

My partner opens 1NT ( 12-14) and RHO passes do you :-

(i) Pass (and if LHO dbls do u scramble?)
(ii) Bid Stayman and do you pass a 2D call

If (i) when do you scramble before LHO can double i.e. with what point count and shape?

Steve

[the hog]

Playing with an inexperienced player I would pass and then bid 2H
Playing with my pd I would transfer to H and hope like hell he does not superaccept. :-)

[Gerben47]

I bid Stayman and bid 2H over 2D forcing partner to pick a major. This auction shows 4-4 or longer and no interest in game.
For all the opponents know I could have 5-5. This will also reduce the doubling because double by my LHO probably means Clubs now.

[csdenmark]

It is standard to pass. Half of the field will pass out the hand completely - so not much to loose here and there it doesn't matter much what you do unless you encourage partner wrongly.

- You pass. If opps. overcall your problems are over.
- You pass. If opps. DBL - you await whether partner choose a RDBL(SOS) - then you take out in hearts.
- You pass. If this is the end - 1-2 down - no problem.

-----------------------
How to handle such is the same whether 12-14 or 15-17. If you play stronger NT fx. 17-20 you will have Gladiator conv. for your disposal to handle this kind of situations.

[hrothgar]

badderzboy, on Jun 1 2004, 10:55 AM, said:

Playing at my local bridge club with a very experienced player I held :-

♠ xxxx
♥ KJxx
♦ xxx
♣ xx

My partner opens 1NT ( 12-14) and RHO passes do you :-

(i) Pass (and if LHO dbls do u scramble?)
(ii) Bid Stayman and do you pass a 2D call

If (i) when do you scramble before LHO can double i.e. with what point count and shape?

Steve

I think that passing is suicide and can't lead to a good score.

From what i understand, many strong pairs who play weak NT have agreements to scramble with this hand type and a pass promises some values.

last two times that I bid Stayman with this hand, partner showed up with a 3=3=2=5 shape. I like Ron's suggestion about transferring to Hearts.

[Chamaco]

csdenmark, on Jun 1 2004, 09:17 AM, said:

Half of the field will pass out the hand completely - so not much to loose here and there it doesn't matter much what you do unless you encourage partner wrongly.

It depends on whether or not the field plays weak NT.
If they open strong NT, the field is likely to settle in a 2 of major partscore.

[luke warm]

i would pass unless doubled... if lho doubles, my bid is dependent upon partner's.. if he xx, i bid 2♣, if he passes i xx, suit bid is brozel for him there

[csdenmark]

luke warm, on Jun 1 2004, 01:28 PM, said:

i would pass unless doubled... if lho doubles, my bid is dependent upon partner's.. if he xx, i bid 2♣, if he passes i xx, suit bid is brozel for him there

No you don't do such Luke. Your partners RDBL informing you of max. 4 card clubs - else he will take out in clubs himself over a DBL opening 6322 or 5332. Your partners SOS is a call for you for a sacrifice in 4-3 fit in majors.

As this post is in beginners/intermediate - we are talking about standard ACOL. If the posting has been in other sections we might have been talking about other systems - club systems or Kaplan/Sheinwold. In KS you immediately bid 2♥.

This is not a swingboard worth sleeepless nights. It is about 50-90-100-110 either way. Nothing else.

[inquiry]

Bid 2!C and pass the response, even if it is 2♦. Note, playing weak NT, junk stayman is necessary. Further note, not a good idea to pass and then bid later, once they double 1NT for penatly, future doubles are penalty, but if you bid now, doubles are for takeout. In Kaplan-Sheinwold book, they called this "scrambling out of the rough".

Ben

[csdenmark]

inquiry, on Jun 1 2004, 03:17 PM, said:

Bid 2!C and pass the response, even if it is 2[si]. Note, playing weak NT, junk stayman is necessary. Further note, not a good idea to pass and then bid later, once they double 1NT for penatly, future doubles are penalty, but if you bid now, doubles are for takeout.  In Kaplan-Sheinwold book, they called this "scrambling out of the rough".

Ben

Ben I dont understand what you are talking about. I assume ACOL standard, 4 card majors. Else a posting in beginner/intermediate section is just rubbish.

In ACOL your 4 card major openings tends to be strong therefore you assume 1NT containing no 4 card majors unless absolute minimum. You will here with 2 balanced hands expect to find such by opps. This means either a 2-suited overcall or maybe a DBL for general unspecified values. A DBL for 1-suiter you simply pass - they have to handle themselves as they cannot find fit.

Talking about KS:
- 2♣ is Stayman standard
- 2♦ getting out of the frying pan - paving the way for opps.' overcall
- 2♥♠ - signoff

Your expectations for the distribution in 1NT KS versus ACOL are completely different.

[Free]

I have some doubts. On the one hand I'd bid 2♣ and pass anything p says, BUT if my RHO Doubles the 2♦ response you're screwed 2♥ still possible, but still... On the other hand I like a pass here, I might bring some ♥ tricks and if opps overcall the probs are over, Dbl is no problem cause I'll start with RDbl or a scrable, or even a pass for -1 .

I pass, let it go around, see what happens...

[Flame]

Ususally playing garbadge stayman which mean you can stayman with both majors and bid 2h on 2d to show it, sounds like a good idea to me especially over weak NT, however there is a point in passing a weak hand , especially when NV, this can be passed out when opponents have a game, if they do have a game you are sure to score well. not sure this is a good example for this kind of pass, but it should be considered.

[inquiry]

csdenmark, on Jun 1 2004, 09:49 AM, said:

Ben I dont understand what you are talking about. I assume ACOL standard, 4 card majors. Else a posting in beginner/intermediate section is just rubbish.

In ACOL your 4 card major openings tends to be strong therefore you assume 1NT containing no 4 card majors unless absolute minimum. You will here with 2 balanced hands expect to find such by opps. This means either a 2-suited overcall or maybe a DBL for general unspecified values. A DBL for 1-suiter you simply pass - they have to handle themselves as they cannot find fit.

Talking about KS:
- 2♣ is Stayman standard
- 2♦ getting out of the frying pan - paving the way for opps.' overcall
- 2♥♠ - signoff

Your expectations for the distribution in 1NT KS versus ACOL are completely different.

Claus,

ACOL was not mentioned in the post, what was mentioned was a weak 1NT opening bid. And believe it or not, a lot of people, yes even beginners, play weak 1NT along with five card majors.

What I am talking about is exactly what Kaplan-Shienwold recommended doing with really weak hands opposite a weak 1NT opening bid. Their theory, and one that I used for many years with good success, is to get out of 1NT before the doubling starts.

If a beginner ask a question, I it is most certainly appropriate to answer it in a straight forward manner, I even told where my advise comes from (that is, what I am basing it upon). Nor do I need lessons from you on what my bids means, nor what kaplan sheinwold bids mean. Someone asked for advise, I gave mine, you gave yours. Let them pick in peace.

And again, claus, ACOL is not the only weak nt system in use.

Ben

[csdenmark]

Flame, on Jun 1 2004, 06:31 PM, said:

Ususally playing garbadge stayman which mean you can stayman with both majors and bid 2h on 2d to show it, sounds like a good idea to me especially over weak NT, however there is a point in passing a weak hand , especially when NV, this can be passed out when opponents have a game, if they do have a game you are sure to score well. not sure this is a good example for this kind of pass, but it should be considered.

The point in 4 card majors like ACOL is you will hold:

2♠2♥3♦6♣
2♠3♥3♦5♣
3♠2♥3♦5♣
2♠3♥4♦4♣
3♠2♥4♦4♣
3♠3♥3♦4♣
3♠3♥4♦3♣

and a few more without 4 card major.

If you have a 4 card major you open 1♥ or 1♠. So failing to do so in ACOL - you will normally have NO 4 card major. Therefore Stayman is of no really importance in ACOL. Of course you may have a 4 card major - but then your general strength will be 12HcP. Attractive???

[csdenmark]

inquiry, on Jun 1 2004, 06:51 PM, said:

Claus,

ACOL was not mentioned in the post, what was mentioned was a weak 1NT opening bid. And believe it or not, a lot of people, yes even beginners, play weak 1NT along with five card majors.

What I am talking about is exactly what Kaplan-Shienwold recommended doing with really weak hands opposite a weak 1NT opening bid. Their theory, and one that I used for many years with good success, is to get out of 1NT before the doubling starts.

If a beginner ask a question, I it is most certainly appropriate to answer it in a straight forward manner, I even told where my advise comes from (that is, what I am basing it upon).  Nor do I need lessons from you on what my bids means, nor what kaplan sheinwold bids mean. Someone asked for advise, I gave mine, you gave yours. Let them pick in peace.

And again, claus, ACOL is not the only weak nt system in use.

Ben

Yes Ben other systems also uses 12-14 NT. Super Lambda, Suspensor, Kaplan-Sheinwold. You may expect this to be asked for in Beginners/Intermediate. - I dont do so - I assume standard classic.

[hrothgar]

csdenmark, on Jun 1 2004, 07:53 PM, said:

If you have a 4 card major you open 1♥ or 1♠. So failing to do so in ACOL - you will normally have NO 4 card major. Therefore Stayman is of no really importance in ACOL. Of course you may have a 4 card major - but then your general strength will be 12HcP. Attractive???

Claus, you really might want to learn Acol before explaining it to others.

Most Acol variants that I haev played open all balanced hands with 12-14 HCP 1NT.
This agreement holds true regardless of whether the hand holds a 4 card major. The Acol developers designed a very nice system. They didn't include Stayman as a lark.

There are some weak NT systems where the 1NT opening denies a 4 card major.
Power Precision is one obvious example.

Other weak NT systems allow players to use descretion whether they should open 1M or 1NT. For example, MOSCITO has an overlap between the 1NT opening range and the opening range for "balanced hands with a 4 card major". Different players advocate different methods for sorting the hands out. Paul Marston advocated opening 1M with 11-12 HCP and 1NT with 13-14 HCP. I prefer to open 1M with (11+-12 HCP and 4 Spades) or (13-14 HCP and 4 Hearts)
1N with (11+-12 HCP and 4 Hearts) or ( 13-14 HCP and 4 Spades)

[MickyB]

csdenmark, on Jun 1 2004, 11:53 AM, said:

If you have a 4 card major you open 1♥ or 1♠. So failing to do so in ACOL - you will normally have NO 4 card major. Therefore Stayman is of no really importance in ACOL. Of course you may have a 4 card major - but then your general strength will be 12HcP. Attractive???

Claus, all 12-14 bals open 1NT in Acol. A 1♥ or 1♠ opening shows either an unbalanced hand, or 15+bal. Otherwise you have no rebid after a 2/1 response. A lot of people will even open 1NT with 5♥332.

[1eyedjack]

First of all may I echo that questions about weak 1NT are in my opinion entirely appropriate for the Beginner/Intermediate forum. For the first 5 years of my learning to play the game I played (and encountered) nothing else. I only switched to strong 1N myself during a brief 10 year sojourn into precision. Nor do I see it as relevant whether it is in the framework of Acol, precision, or you-name-it. Provided that the shape and strength definitions of the 1N opener are the same, the continuations are entirely modular (which is to say transportable between systems). Incidentally, the BBO definition of Intermediate carries quite a wide range of experience, and playing weak 1N is well within the experience of many intermediate players brought up on strong 1N.

On, then, to my opinion about the question raised.

Basing my answers on experience more than theory I would personally pass the 1N, and if I responded 2C as Stayman I would pass a 2D rebid. However I do not think that any of these methods has a significant advantage over the other, taking all winning and losing hands into account.

I shall however try to construct some theoretical basis for this approach.

If you are going to bid Stayman and convert 2D to 2H it has to be on the understanding that opener will convert to (longer) Spades. This reduces the effectiveness of bidding Stayman with unequal length in the majors, when you then want to insist on your longer major in the absence of a 4 card major in opener.

If you bid Stayman and then pass 2D you only give one opponent (LHO) a chance to compete in the knowledge that you are weak. If you convert 2D to 2H then both opponents know you are weak (and general distribution) with each having an opportunity to call. If 2D gets passed out you are laughing, even if it is a misfit. If 2D gets doubled (and only LHO can now do this) and RHO passes quickly with a smug grin, then you might consider XX. OK, you are likely to get doubled in 2M but this scenario is by no means certain at the outset, nor is it by any means certain that any other approach would have escaped the same contract.

These points together (IMHO) argue strongly in favour of passing 2D response to Stayman.

The question then arises, should you pass or Stayman? Personally I prefer not to play Stayman at all, which rather changes the hands that you should pass on, but that is not a subject for this forum or thread. Proceed on the assumption that Stayman is on the CC.

I think that it is by no means a certainty that you are walking into a double of 1NT if you pass this hand. If the opposing values are evenly distributed then 1N passed out is entirely feasible. If the protective hand is unbalanced he may well rescue you instead of doubling. And of course there appears to be a growing population of players who are discarding a penalty double of 1N (even the weak one) in favour of some sort of artificial distribution-showing call. If your LHO is one of those who thinks that the "transferred King" principle applies in protective seat after a 1N opener and is in the habit of doubling on a flat 11 count then he may get lucky this time but you will beat him in the long term and you should not define your system to cater for sub-optimal opponents.

One of the advantages of opening 1NT (weak or strong) is that responder knows the opposing combined strength but the opponents do not. If you pass 1NT then for all they know you could have anything short of a game try. The more you bid the more chances you give to the opponents, the less they are in the dark, and the higher you are in the process.

I do not think that you are very much more likely to end up playing in a doubled contract if the opponents are in penalty double mode than if they are in takeout double mode - certainly not so much more likely that I am willing to forego the possibility of playing in 1NT passed out.

Note that if you habitually pass 1NT with values and always pull it with nothing, you have to alert both the pass and the pull. Competent and prepared opponents will not be so forgiving of the (fully disclosed) runout. And you then need to be a bit careful of the number of times you make a psychic pass of 1N on a balanced Yarborough.

[KiwiBridge]

Playing ACOL, your opening promises a rebid. Playing a 12-14NT, therefore your NT rebids promise 15+. There will be many flat 12-14 counts that you want to open, that contain a 4 card major. That is what the 1NT opening is for, as it describes your hand, and doesn't promise a rebid.

As for rescuing yourself from a double of your 1NT.... I cringe. As you have described your hand, any rescue manouvres should be up to partner. Here are the methods my partners use:

XX - Puppet, promises a 5 card suit, forces opener to bid 2♣, then pass or bid. This gets you to the (relative) safety of your 5-2 fit.

Suit - promises 4 of the bid suit and 4 of the higher

PASS - To play in 1NTX

Thus, on the hand in question my partner would bid 2♥ showing 4-4 in the majors weak.

[the hog]

"Playing ACOL, your opening promises a rebid. Playing a 12-14NT, therefore your NT rebids promise 15+. There will be many flat 12-14 counts that you want to open, that contain a 4 card major. That is what the 1NT opening is for, as it describes your hand, and doesn't promise a rebid."

Well...yes, but
Some acol variants use a 15-17 NT throughout, and traditional Acol used a variable NT which is today still used by some die hards.
It is true though, that most Acolites today use 12-14 throughout.
An Acol NT is not necessarily a 12-14 NT.