[EarlPurple]

What is the vulnerability?

If non-vulnerable I will pass. I hope that if we go 2 off that -100 won't be so bad as the opponents can make 2NT and possibly 3 of a minor.

If vulnerable I see little to gain by passing as 2 off undoubled will be -200 and a very bad score, so I bid 2♣ and if partner has 5 diamonds or a 4-card major we probably escape trouble. If not we were getting a bad score anyway.

At IMPs I will pass at any vulnerability.

[Ulrich]

Clausie,
An Acol 1NT does not contain a 4 card Major? Gadzooks! My good friends Terrence, Boris, Adam and the Sharples twins would roll over in their graves.
Last time I played with Boris we played Ulrich Acol, where the 1NT has to have 3, count them, 4 card Majors.

Sincerely

Graf Freiherr von und zu Ulrich von Lichtenstein.

[luke warm]

badderzboy, on Jun 1 2004, 09:55 AM, said:

♠ xxxx
♥ KJxx
♦ xxx
♣ xx

My partner opens 1NT ( 12-14) and RHO passes do you :-

(i) Pass (and if LHO dbls do u scramble?)
(ii) Bid Stayman and do you pass a 2D call

If (i) when do you scramble before LHO can double i.e. with what point count and shape?

Steve

i have to admit i was a little confused when the topic turned to acol, like ben i never assumed any one system... i play mini, for example, within a 2/1 framework... anyway, 2♣ here for me is invitational puppet, tho i can see a lot of merit in bidding that and passing any bid... i'd rather be shorter in clubs and longer in diamonds, but now that i think about it that bid isn't completely unattractive... i'd still pass, because the escapes in place should get us to a fairly decent 2 bid if doubled

[MickyB]

KiwiBridge, on Jun 1 2004, 05:11 PM, said:

As for rescuing yourself from a double of your 1NT.... I cringe. As you have described your hand, any rescue manouvres should be up to partner. Here are the methods my partners use:

XX - Puppet, promises a 5 card suit, forces opener to bid 2♣, then pass or bid. This gets you to the (relative) safety of your 5-2 fit.

Suit - promises 4 of the bid suit and 4 of the higher

PASS - To play in 1NTX

Thus, on the hand in question my partner would bid 2♥ showing 4-4 in the majors weak.

Indeed, rescuing yourself from a double isn't an option. However, using opener's XX to show a 5 card suit, either after a direct or protective double, works quite nicely - responder can now pass with a strong hand that was happy to play 1NT X, or bid 2♣ as pass or correct for opener's suit with a weak hand.

Mike

[luke warm]

MickyB, on Jun 2 2004, 03:02 AM, said:

Indeed, rescuing yourself from a double isn't an option. However, using opener's XX to show a 5 card suit, either after a direct or protective double, works quite nicely - responder can now pass with a strong hand that was happy to play 1NT X, or bid 2♣ as pass or correct for opener's suit with a weak hand.

Mike

exactly right, the way i play.. opener's bid of any suit following the x is brozel, a pass forces xx so opener can show 2 suits without hearts, and xx is puppet to 2♣, which opener passes or corrects.. and yes, if opener passes the x, expecting xx, responder can pass if he wants to play 1nt x'd

[the hog]

That method is called Swine, (sebesfi woods 1N extraction), named after its inventors.
It is always nice to alert this and when the opponents ask say "We are playing Swine."

[MickyB]

The_Hog, on Jun 1 2004, 08:37 PM, said:

That method is called Swine, (sebesfi woods 1N extraction), named after its inventors.
It is always nice to alert this and when the opponents ask say "We are playing Swine."

Isn't Swine by responder after a direct seat double? Luke Warm is referring to running from your own 1NT on the auction 1N-P-P-X, ?, which I think is clearly wrong, my 'XX=5 card suit' method lets us still punish the opps if they shouldn't have stepped into the auction. If, however, opps play that pass over our runout is now forcing, it may be worth taking advantage of that by letting opener bid!

[the hog]

Isn't Swine by responder after a direct seat double?
It actually is after both

[luke warm]

MickyB, on Jun 2 2004, 03:49 AM, said:

Luke Warm is referring to running from your own 1NT on the auction 1N-P-P-X, ?, which I think is clearly wrong, my 'XX=5 card suit' method lets us still punish the opps if they shouldn't have stepped into the auction. If, however, opps play that pass over our runout is now forcing, it may be worth taking advantage of that by letting opener bid!

the way we play, responder is supposed to bid any 5 card suit immediately (unless his rho x's), if possible... 2♣ can't be bid unless it's invitational puppet or garbage stayman... so if it goes 1N (p) p (x), responder doesn't have a 5 card major and is otherwise afraid to bid 2♣

allowing the opener to bid something other than xx after 1n (p) p (x) seems to allow a better description of hand types

[paulg]

badderzboy, on Jun 1 2004, 08:55 AM, said:

Playing at my local bridge club with a very experienced player I held :-

♠ xxxx
♥ KJxx
♦ xxx
♣ xx

My partner opens 1NT ( 12-14) and RHO passes do you :-

(i) Pass (and if LHO dbls do u scramble?)
(ii) Bid Stayman and do you pass a 2D call

I'm late to this topic but this doesn't look like a very poor hand to me!

Coming from weak NT country I'm sure no-one at the club would consider anything other than Pass as an initial action. There is a fair chance that the points will be shared amongst the opps and you may get to play in 1NT undoubled - only the true expert doubles with 13 points in 4th!

If LHO has a hand that is doubling, then he'll also be doubling a Stayman 2♣ to show a hand that would have doubled 1NT - as regular (even non-expert) defenders know that this is best defence - so I gain little by this action.

In terms of opener's actions following a 4th seat double, it is fair to say the few club players will have discussed any methods and would pass in their sleep leaving it to partner. I have seen some experts use redouble to show a 6-card minor, which seems sensible, but no-one considers opener moving from 1NT - it is responder's decision, as he has 0-11 points!

Cheers

Paul

[whereagles]

If you do something other than pass 1NT on xxxx KJxx xxx xx, you're relinquishing the greatest advantage of playing a weak NT: pressure over the 4th seat.

Since the 1NT's pard passes the opening on with 0-10 points (as compared to 0-7 in a normal NT), the 4th is in real trouble estimating how many points partner has. He usually has a tough decision to make, his options being:

1. Sell out to 1NT, hoping to beat you or stay out of trouble. You risk losing your won contract, misdefending, missing a good double on the NT, etc.
2. Double. Two-edged weapon. Can go either way.
3. Bid something. In this case he's starting his auction at level 2, in clear disadvantage to other people in the field.

If you bid 2♣ or 2♦ here, most of his problems are solved...

[mishovnbg]

Most of good players I know will bid 2♣ with this hand.
Misho

[Free]

mishovnbg, on Jun 2 2004, 11:25 PM, said:

Most of good players I know will bid 2♣ with this hand.
Misho

I wouldn't be that sure Misho

[luke warm]

badderzboy, on Jun 1 2004, 09:55 AM, said:

Playing at my local bridge club with a very experienced player I held :-

♠ xxxx
♥ KJxx
♦ xxx
♣ xx

My partner opens 1NT ( 12-14) and RHO passes do you :-

(i) Pass (and if LHO dbls do u scramble?)
(ii) Bid Stayman and do you pass a 2D call

If (i) when do you scramble before LHO can double i.e. with what point count and shape?

Steve

ok, maybe i missed it (but i did look), what were the two hands? i'm not interested in the opps' hands, just opener's ... thanks

[KiwiBridge]

I consider myself a fairy good player.... I'd have no hesitation in passing the double. I've seen 1NTX make many times, and I've seen many "scrambles" hit for 1100's

[Free]

Time for some history of the hand imo

[badderzboy]

The outcome of the hand was I bid 2♣ and my partner bid 2♦ which was passed out.

My partner had a 4-4-3-2 hand

1NT goes down 2 or 3 and on some 4! depending on play and isn't doubled nothing lies nicely as AQ♥ is off-side and 2♦ went down 2 and scored an average board.

Thanks for all the advice - next time I'll pass the 1NT!

Cheers

Steve

[Free]

4-4-3-2??? 4♠, 4♥, 3♦ and 2♣??? I hope you mean a 2-3-4-4, otherwise you're playing a very weird partner! ... or puppet stayman...

[1eyedjack]

badderzboy, on Jun 3 2004, 07:08 AM, said:

The outcome of the hand was I bid 2♣ and my partner bid 2♦ which was passed out.

My partner had a 4-4-3-2 hand

1NT goes down 2 or 3 and on some 4! depending on play and isn't doubled nothing lies nicely as AQ♥ is off-side and 2♦ went down 2 and scored an average board.

Thanks for all the advice - next time I'll pass the 1NT!

Cheers

Steve

Going back to your original question, had you converted 2♦ to 2♥ I reckon that the opps would have been much more likely to find their 3♣ "save", which presumably makes with some ease.

[luke warm]

thanks but i really wanted to see both hands posted... can you post opener's hand? not just the shape (if that *is* the shape), but the entire hand