[gwnn]

OK so not exactly ATB but your general thoughts of this dubious auction.

x
AKQxxxx
Axx
Ax

KJTx
Jx
xxx
Kxxx

2♣-2♦
2♥-2NT
3♥-3♠
3NT-4♣
4♦-(x)-p
4♥-4NT
pass

And, what your auction be?

[matmat]

1h-1s;
4h-p

or something to do with namyats.

[rbforster]

Or if you prefer to start 2♣ because of your great suit, why not set trump:

2♣-2♦
3♥-3N* 3♥ sets trump, requests cue of an A; 3N - no A's but at least 1 K
4♥-P

But I think it's probably a lot more common to start this hand with 1♥. The auction is less likely to die in 1♥ with your stiff spade than if opener's majors were reversed.

[TimG]

gwnn, on Jul 6 2009, 09:03 AM, said:

OK so not exactly ATB but your general thoughts of this dubious auction.

x
AKQxxxx
Axx
Ax

KJTx
Jx
xxx
Kxxx

2♣-2♦
2♥-2NT
3♥-3♠
3NT-4♣
4♦-(x)-p
4♥-4NT
pass

And, what your auction be?

I agree with those that open this 1♥ and think it is sort of a "wtp" opening bid choice.

One question about the 2♣ auction: what is the difference between 2♣-2♦-2♥-2N-3♥ and 2♣-2♦-2♥-2N-4♥?

[jdonn]

I strongly disagree with 1♥. Txxxx xx xxx xxx is a cold 3NT. xxxx x KQJxx xxx is a cold slam. 2♣ for me.

[pirate22]

try putting it in interesting hands---- re baggers using Modified Norman

start 2cl--- pardbids 3cl(=2K specific) modified Norman- so from the openers situation which 2 kings
could be??? cl/and d,then again spades and another,which is of no use,so i would close at 4 hts-----if i wanted to alternate is to bid 3 hts pard, would then bid 3 spades, you pays your money and make a decision

under usual auctions 2cl 2d(auto) 2hts-2spades,back to square one
regards

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 2C - the hand is too weak, if you play something like 2/1, i.e. 2C is the
only forcing bid, playing Benji, 2C is fine, you have a Acol 2 in hearts,
and if you can stop in 2H, that is fine
#2 2D - is ok
#3 2H - is ok, that was the plan
#4 2NT - I prefer 2S, as long as it showes pos. values and 4 spades,
sometimes opener will have 4 spades on the side
Besides you dont have diamonds stopped
#5 3H is fine - sets trumps
#6 3S is fine - a cue for hearts
#7 3NT is ??? - serious 3NT is a little bit too much for a min. 2C
opener, the sapde cue did not improve your hand
#8 4C is fine
#9 4D is ? - a cue ok, Last Train no
#10 p is ok, assuming it denies a control
#11 4H is ok
#12 4NT is RKCB, a little bit much if you play 2C as semi forcing only
#13 Pass showes that the assumption "3H sets trumps" was not shared
on both sides of the table
......................................................................................................
1H (1) - 1S
4H (2) - Pass

(1) maybe you play Namyats
(2) on the heavy side, but 1S did not improve your hand
if you play that a 2NT rebid by opener showes a strong hand
witha 6 card suit, that would fit nicely

With kind regards
Marlowe

[vuroth]

As an intermediate:

My first thought was that it seemed light for 2♣. Then I thought about it, and realized that I probably wanted to be in game opposite the average hand with 2 hearts and a king. So 2♣ I like.

While I might not be understanding the auction, it seems to me that south makes a lot more slam tries that I would have with his hand. 8 points isn't bad, but I probably would have signed off in 4♥ after 3NT (whatever 3NT meant).

[ArtK78]

I don't know about the auction, but the final contract of 4NT is fine. Against a diamond lead, 10 tricks in hearts or notrump is the maximum result.

[Phil]

Easy 2♣ opening, and I agree with the 2♥ rebid. For me, a 3♥ rebid expresses not only a solid suit, but an ability to control the auction. While we have great trump, I'd like to find out if partner has a side suit before I start making demand bids for aces and kings.

[Phil]

pirate22, on Jul 6 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

try putting it in interesting hands---- re baggers using Modified Norman

start 2cl--- pardbids 3cl(=2K specific) modified Norman- so from the openers situation which 2 kings
could be??? cl/and d,then again spades and another,which is of no use,so i would close at 4 hts-----if i wanted to alternate is to bid 3 hts pard, would then bid 3 spades, you pays your money and make a decision

under usual auctions 2cl 2d(auto) 2hts-2spades,back to square one
regards

I think I've figured out who you take lessons from and its not the obvious one.

[jdonn]

Agree with Phil, I'm surprised it even came up. Rebidding 3♥ would be quite bad after 2♣, you have no idea how many tricks your side has. That is done when you have enough tricks yourself and just need controls, or when a particular control would give you enough tricks. In fact you're not even sure you belong in hearts, if partner bids spades over my heart bids I would be strongly considering 3NT.

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jul 7 2009, 03:19 AM, said:

I strongly disagree with 1♥. Txxxx xx xxx xxx is a cold 3NT. ...

And the chance of the auction dying in 1♥ when the opponents have 23 HCP and only four hearts is diminishingly small.

[Jlall]

If you open 1H you can't show a 9 playing trick 1 suiter because you open 2C with that! What is the reason for not opening 2C?

[TimG]

Cascade, on Jul 6 2009, 03:59 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 7 2009, 03:19 AM, said:

I strongly disagree with 1♥. Txxxx xx xxx xxx is a cold 3NT. ...

And the chance of the auction dying in 1♥ when the opponents have 23 HCP and only four hearts is astonishingly small.

I was thinking that the chances of finding 3N were pretty small, I'd sooner expect 4♥ down 1. But, I was clearly wrong about "1♥, wtp", maybe there is an obvious route to 3N after a 2♣ opening.

[jdonn]

TimG, on Jul 6 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

Cascade, on Jul 6 2009, 03:59 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 7 2009, 03:19 AM, said:

I strongly disagree with 1♥. Txxxx xx xxx xxx is a cold 3NT. ...

And the chance of the auction dying in 1♥ when the opponents have 23 HCP and only four hearts is astonishingly small.

I was thinking that the chances of finding 3N were pretty small, I'd sooner expect 4♥ down 1. But, I was clearly wrong about "1♥, wtp", maybe there is an obvious route to 3N after a 2♣ opening.

2♣ 2♦
2♥ 2♠
3♥ 3♠
3NT

Where 2♠ was forced (Kokish), or the same auction if 2♠ was natural on a similar hand for responder. Anyway Cascade's "astonishingly small" is an astonishingly large overbid, nor does it matter since responder could have one heart, or a queen or two. The example wasn't to say you open 2♣ so you can reach 3NT opposite this hand, it was to say our hand is so powerful it can make 3NT opposite nothing.

[Jlall]

2C 2D
2H 2S
3N

Shows this hand doesn't it (not playing kokish)?

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jul 7 2009, 10:40 AM, said:

TimG, on Jul 6 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

Cascade, on Jul 6 2009, 03:59 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 7 2009, 03:19 AM, said:

I strongly disagree with 1♥. Txxxx xx xxx xxx is a cold 3NT. ...

And the chance of the auction dying in 1♥ when the opponents have 23 HCP and only four hearts is astonishingly small.

I was thinking that the chances of finding 3N were pretty small, I'd sooner expect 4♥ down 1. But, I was clearly wrong about "1♥, wtp", maybe there is an obvious route to 3N after a 2♣ opening.

2♣ 2♦
2♥ 2♠
3♥ 3♠
3NT

Where 2♠ was forced (Kokish), or the same auction if 2♠ was natural on a similar hand for responder. Anyway Cascade's "astonishingly small" is an astonishingly large overbid, nor does it matter since responder could have one heart, or a queen or two. The example wasn't to say you open 2♣ so you can reach 3NT opposite this hand, it was to say our hand is so powerful it can make 3NT opposite nothing.

I am yet to see the hand with your example near yarborough opposite where it will clearly go 1♥ Pass Pass Pass. Every hand I have generated has at least a marginal action for one of the opponents. For example give one opponent 3=2=4=4 11 HCP then his partner has 4=2=3=4 12 HCP either of which might make a takeout double. Especially given that neither hand will have much wasted in hearts. Any minor change seems to make one hand or the other more likely to act.

To me that is astonishingly small.

Perhaps you can produce the more frequent example hands where it would go PASS PASS PASS.

[jdonn]

Cascade, on Jul 6 2009, 05:58 PM, said:

Perhaps you can produce the more frequent example hands where it would go PASS PASS PASS.

I won't even try, because...

jdonn, on Jul 6 2009, 05:40 PM, said:

nor does it matter since responder could have one heart, or a queen or two. The example wasn't to say you open 2♣ so you can reach 3NT opposite this hand, it was to say our hand is so powerful it can make 3NT opposite nothing.

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jul 7 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

Cascade, on Jul 6 2009, 05:58 PM, said:

Perhaps you can produce the more frequent example hands where it would go PASS PASS PASS.

I won't even try, because...

jdonn, on Jul 6 2009, 05:40 PM, said:

nor does it matter since responder could have one heart, or a queen or two. The example wasn't to say you open 2♣ so you can reach 3NT opposite this hand, it was to say our hand is so powerful it can make 3NT opposite nothing.

and because 'Anyway Cascade's "astonishingly small" is an astonishingly large overbid"' is not so astonishingly blatantly untrue and unreasonable.