[vin1990]

I held
♠K1082 ♥2 ♦J8 ♣QJ10982

The auction:

1♥-1♠-2♥-? my bid.

For me bids would be:
2♠ - 3-4 spades (or HH spades and an ok hand) - usual raise as if partner opened
3♥ - game invite hand+
3♠ - 4+ spades usually some shape - weakish
4♠ - any 5+ spades nv-vul or 5+ spades and shape or good hand with shape and 4+ spades

Are these bids usual with/without discussion?

What should I bid?

(I bid 3♠ - I almost bid 4 - and partner raised to 4 and after the hand told me that after an overcall 3s should be a full opening hand)

[Codo]

3 ♠ is preemptive, your partner erred.

Your ideas are quite close to mainstream.

For me your hand is a clear 3 ♥ bid. You have shortness in their suit, you have a great second suit and 4 trumps. The question is whether you should pass 3 spade or bid game. This is a borderline descission and depends on your style.

[gwnn]

This is not the time for some sort of scientific underbid, 4 cards with a 6 bagger is as good as 5.

4♠

[mtvesuvius]

Your ideas are generally considered standard, and it would seem that your partner was on another planet. With this hand I will bid 4♠, my ♣ length and ♥ shortness makes this look to be the best bid. 4♠ also happens to be a flexible bid as you see, and could contain hands like this, or stronger hands.

[helene_t]

I think 2♠ should have a wider ranger than if partner had opened, but other than that your ideas are mainstream.

[Codo]

I do not like 4 spade. Give partner some ordinary AQxxx,xxx,Axx,Kx and you make. But with that hand he will accept an invitation.

[mtvesuvius]

Codo, on Jun 29 2009, 08:29 AM, said:

I do not like 4 spade. Give partner some ordinary AQxxx,xxx,Axx,Kx and you make. But with that hand he will accept an invitation.

That is true, and the Vulnerbility should play some part in your decision...

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

as others have said, the structure you listed is "expert" mainstream
standard.
Now the point is, most guys you will meet on BBO have never heard
about ""expert" mainstream standard, so they may get it wrong,
if you try it out.

In the given seq. the only problematic bid is 3S, because either your
partner takes it as inv. (and facing an overcall, inv. means approx.
min. opening strength 10-12 with shape will do, but this is short below
opening strength), or preemptiv with trumps.
If you want to cater for this, you can go via 2S intending to bid 3S, if
3H comes around.

It is of course up to you, how much you really care, that a player you
never see again is not mislead, ... if he would be mislead by 3S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[655321]

4♠ for me.

Perhaps it depends what is meant by invitational, but I dislike 3♥ very much. You could make a mixed raise with this hand (although I much prefer 4♠), but the hand is nothing like what I would expect for an invitation.

[cherdanno]

Agree with 665555332211. I think 3♥ is really bad, this bid should show some high cards. You are not passing if partner doubles 4♥ now, are you?
This is between 3S and 4S, and as I would be very unhappy passing 4H, and as opponents are quite likely to go wrong over 4S (either by doubling when we are making or having a good save, or by bidding on when they shouldn't), it seems absolutely clear to bid 4S.

[jdonn]

Codo, on Jun 29 2009, 08:29 AM, said:

I do not like 4 spade. Give partner some ordinary AQxxx,xxx,Axx,Kx and you make. But with that hand he will accept an invitation.

But take out one of the honors and the opponents make 4♥. I love 4♠ directly on our hand.

[cherdanno]

jdonn, on Jun 29 2009, 09:28 AM, said:

Codo, on Jun 29 2009, 08:29 AM, said:

I do not like 4 spade. Give partner some ordinary AQxxx,xxx,Axx,Kx and you make. But with that hand he will accept an invitation.

But take out one of the honors and the opponents make 4♥. I love 4♠ directly on our hand.

Or give one of them a black singleton.

[jdonn]

cherdanno, on Jun 29 2009, 09:29 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 29 2009, 09:28 AM, said:

Codo, on Jun 29 2009, 08:29 AM, said:

I do not like 4 spade. Give partner some ordinary AQxxx,xxx,Axx,Kx and you make. But with that hand he will accept an invitation.

But take out one of the honors and the opponents make 4♥. I love 4♠ directly on our hand.

Or give one of them a black singleton.

Of course true. I was just trying to show him it's right to bid 4♠ very often even when it's not making. But you can certainly add to that it's even more right when 4♠ is making than one might realize.

Btw this hand shows why I don't like 4 card overcalls. Bidding game now is clearly right if partner has 5. It's likely to be bad though if partner has a balanced 11 count with 4 or something. I have always maintained it just makes things too hard on partner of the overcaller to overcall with 4 card suits any more often than rarely.

[Codo]

I am sorry, you are right, 4 ♠ is the much better bid .

[Tola18]

I would like to add another threatment probably also possible here.

Bidding a side suit as real suit, promising also fit, inviting.

Here it would be 3C. (as bidding a real suit without fit is rather meaningsless)


This treatment: sidesuit on 3-level = real, fit, invite - common in Poland and some other countries as well.

[matmat]

Tola18, on Jul 5 2009, 03:09 AM, said:

I would like to add another threatment probably also possible here.

Bidding a side suit as real suit, promising also fit, inviting.

Here it would be 3C.    (as bidding a real suit without fit is rather meaningsless)


This treatment: sidesuit on 3-level = real, fit, invite - common in Poland and some other countries as well.

what do you bid when you have a highly invitational/forcing hand with clubs but no spade fit?

[Cascade]

Too good for 3♠ for me.

Maybe not quite right for 4♠ but unless you think somehow you are going to have an informative auction I think this is better than the alternatives.

[Flameous]

4♣ fit jump clearly stands out here. (Or 3♣ FNJ if you play it) The only way to let your partner make right decisions after 5♥.

Obviously it seems that kind of bid wasn't available if partner took 3♠ wrong.

With these options I'd pick either 3♠ or 4♠ depending on table presence and mood.

[mikeh]

Codo, on Jun 30 2009, 02:57 AM, said:

I am sorry, you are right, 4 ♠ is the much better bid .

A great post..exhibits the best of BBF... a willingness to change one's mind when cogent arguments are presented. An all too rare characteristic