[plaur]

Dummy AQT54
Declarer 8732

You have entries in both hands and no risk of ruffs. How do you play this combination:

1) Best chance for 5 tricks, say in a pairs tournament
2) When you only need 4 tricks, say in a team game where 4 tricks secures the contract

I think I know the answers but my intuition was dead wrong

[jdonn]

I hid my answers.

Spoiler

1) Ace first gets 5 tricks against
J96 K
Finessing queen gets 5 tricks against
K6 J9
K9 J6
K96 J
Finessing ten gets 5 tricks against
KJ9 6
KJ6 9
Queen finesse wins.

2) Ace first, since if you take either finesse first and lose to the next higher card you will have a guess on the next round whether it was a singleton or KJ doubleton.

[manudude03]

Spoiler

5 tricks, low towards the Q then cash A.

4 tricks, cash the ace then finesse.

[neilkaz]

Pardon me..for chiming in here..but as usual I ask where are the B/I player responses and attempts at learning and improving?

You B/I who don't attempt things like this are failing to take advantage of this forum !!!!!!!!

I am not the only adv/exp who replies here and who can figure out the answers or knows the percentages but is constantly asked to play or plays with those who call themselves adv or worse yet exp and who plays with those who constantly screw this up ATB and much worse yet (and noting that I want them to tell me if I screw it up) don't even care to learn it after they missplay it.

Advise for those B/I who blew a cold hand here and wondered why their opp left...study and memorize common sense and improve and ur enjoyment rises accordingly.

To those adv+ so call exp opps who I find reasons to not partner anymore (we actually have a dog to walk here now ) at least you can be willing to learn when I tell you that you screwed up a basic card combo.

[vin1990]

After the 'where are all the B/I players' rave I will have a go.

i) Needing 5 tricks
There are 16 cases.
In half of those the king is offside. Except for a stiff king offside that makes 7 where making 5 is impossible.
Making 5 is also impossible when KJ96 is onside and when the stiff K is onside and J96 offside (the J always takes a trick).
That leaves 7 cases when 5 tricks are possible.

KJ9 6 - finesse to 10 wins 5
KJ6 9 - finesse to 10 wins 5
K96 J - finesse to Q wins 5 (and refinessing the king)
J96 K - playing ace first wins 5
KJ 96 - finesse to Q wins 5
K9 J6 - finesse to Q wins 5
K6 J9 - finesse to Q wins 5

That means you cant win 5 whatever you do 9/16 of the time. Finesse to 10 wins 1/8 of the time. Finesse to Q wins 1/4 of the time. Playing Ace first wins 1/16 of the time
So finessing to Q works out twice as often as the next best option.

ii) Needing 4 tricks
Now there are only 3 cases where it is impossible to win 4 tricks.
KJ96, KJ6 and KJ9 offside.
There are also a number of cases where you will always win 4 playing ace first, finessing to Q or finessing to 10 (provided you cover any honor that appears)
(KJ 96
K9 J6
K6 J9
J9 K6
J6 K9
K J96
KJ96 -
KJ9 6
KJ6 9
K96 J (assuming if you play to 10 you will always finesse 2nd time around)
J K96)

That leaves
J96 K
96 KJ
In both of these playing ace first works best.

Not sure of this is exactly right but the lecture above made me feel compelled to have a go.

I read this board a lot and find some of it really helpful. However I'm only 19 and a bit of a bridge novice. For me bridge is just a hobby - not a life - and I find the level of skill and knowledge of some of the experts here really intimidating. I also tend to post late at night after indulging in some favorite student past times - and it shows - so I resolved to only post occasionally. It's also the Internet - a place that seems to release a few inhibitions - so I don't think you should be so down on B/I players for not venturing into exercises like this - it's sort of scary.

[vuroth]

neilkaz, on Jul 6 2009, 12:10 AM, said:

Pardon me..for chiming in here..but as usual I ask where are the B/I player responses and attempts at learning and improving?

You B/I who don't attempt things like this are failing to take advantage of this forum !!!!!!!!

Did it in my head before reading the answers. Got the first one right, but I seem to have a blind spot on the second one. Need to work on that.

I religiously try all the problems posted here, and always wish there were more. I'm exceedingly grateful for all of the experts who chime in in this forum. They're certainly not obliged to.

Quote

Advise for those B/I who blew a cold hand here and wondered why their opp left...study and memorize common sense and improve and ur enjoyment rises accordingly.

That's why I mostly don't play with people. I'd rather play at my own pace, think through the post mortems at my own pace, and not have to deal with unrealistic expectations of partners and opponents.

[matmat]

neilkaz, on Jul 6 2009, 12:10 AM, said:

Pardon me..for chiming in here..but as usual I ask where are the B/I player responses and attempts at learning and improving?

You B/I who don't attempt things like this are failing to take advantage of this forum !!!!!!!!

I am not the only adv/exp who replies here and who can figure out the answers or knows the percentages but is constantly asked to play or plays with those who call themselves adv or worse yet exp and who plays with those who constantly screw this up ATB and much worse yet (and noting that I want them to tell me if I screw it up) don't even care to learn it after they missplay it.

Advise for those B/I who blew a cold hand here and wondered why their opp left...study and memorize common sense and improve and ur enjoyment rises accordingly.

To those adv+ so call exp opps who I find reasons to not partner anymore (we actually have a dog to walk here now ) at least you can be willing to learn when I tell you that you screwed up a basic card combo.

hehe...

best. post. ever!

[jocdelevat]

B/i response is 8 ever 9 never.(I'm not sure but I think even on learn to play bridge -BBO section says not to finesse when you have 9) That what I was taught however good to learn something new. I suppose OP wanted to confirm his thoughts and play from adv/experts not from b/i . Those are 2 reasons why I think you didn't see any response from b/i.

[jdonn]

jocdelevat, on Jul 6 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

B/i response is 8 ever 9 never.(I'm not sure but I think even on learn to play bridge -BBO section says not to finesse when you have 9) That what I was taught however good to learn something new.

It's good you brought that up for clarification. That cliche refers to when you are missing only the queen, not the king or the king jack.

[mikeh]

This is a good card combo... very common... and one that I have seen many quite experienced (but non-expert) players get wrong.

The distinction between the two situations is often overlooked by B/I and even advanced players...especially those whose experience has been mostly at mps... which is true of real-life club players... whose instinct is to try to take as many tricks as possible, rather than to maximize making a contract.

I won't post my answers.. I haven't looked at josh's but they will be the correct ones.

[Stephen Tu]

A few additional notes:

- when counting winning cases vs. losing cases, keep in mind that specific 2-2 breaks are more common than specific 3-1 breaks, 6.78% vs. 6.22%. And both are more common than 4-0 at 4.78%. So "cancel out" holdings of the same length when comparing 2 lines, but if one line works with say 2 2-2 breaks while the second works with 2 3-1 breaks, know that the first line is going to be a little better. Same holds for other suit combos.

You can get this by dividing the percentage of a suit breaking a particular way by the # of possible layouts with that split, which you should memorize from the top half of following table:
http://www.jeffgolds...suitbreaks.html
(don't need them to 4 decimal places, obviously, just to nearest % is enough, and
the first 6,7 sections are the ones to know for practical play). If you want to know how the table is derived, make another post.

Another useful tool is found at www.rpbridge.net , Pavlicek's "card combo calculator", which will do the busywork of listing out the layouts & help you add up percentages.

- "8 ever, 9 never" only refers to missing the Q only as Josh said, missing the K only it's more like "10 ever, 11 never" (missing both K&J complicates things further). But this is *only in the absence of other information*, and *only without other considerations in the hand*. For dropping vs. hooking with 9, it's very close (52/48), so a little information can swing you the other way. If an opponent shows up with length in a side suit, it's usually right to play him for shortness in the key suit and hook against his partner. Or if one opp is marked with all HCP, hook against him.

Of course other things like keeping an opp off lead, or hooks that win even when they "lose" (endplaying the opp if hook loses, or if hook loses that means the suit split and you are guaranteed a certain number of later ruffs), can mean that you should violate the 9 never guideline.

- It's an interesting combo, if you replace the 5 in dummy with the 9. Many very advanced players do not know the "mp-best" line which is different from the original combo. (Same restrictions, no worry about entries, side suit ruffs.)

[655321]

Stephen Tu, on Jul 6 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

- It's an interesting combo, if you replace the 5 in dummy with the 9.  Many very advanced players do not know the "mp-best" line which is different from the original combo.  (Same restrictions, no worry about entries, side suit ruffs.)

I think this one is in Sabine Aukens's book.