[Phil]

jdonn, on Jun 1 2009, 12:36 AM, said:

I think rebidding after a takeout double is probably the area of bidding that has changed the most in the relatively short time since I learned to play bridge. I first learned raising shows significant extras (this hand), raising to 3 shows very significant extras, and cuebidding showed something like the equivalent of a 2♣ opener and tended to deny direct support for partner (since if you had it you could just raise). But now that people want to raise with less and less, the double raise is much lighter, and the cuebid is often made on a wide variety of hands with a lot less extra values than I first learned were needed, and may or may not have support.

I'm trying to keep up. I think 2♥ was right 10 or 15 years ago and 3♥ is right (meaning expected by an expert across from you) today. But this is one of the only areas in which I consider myself old fashioned, and I would really prefer to be able to just bid 2♥ on this. I don't want to go down in 3♥ sometimes just for the joy of raising without any real extras when the opponents aren't even fighting for the hand yet.

Great stuff Josh, and not because I totally agree.

We can all agree a direct 2♥ by pard would show 8-11ish, right?

The only real upside that I can see to saving 2♥ to show a hand like Axxx, AKxx, xx, QJx is that its a total-tricks bid and will make it tougher for LHO to creep back in with a hand that didn't want to take a call over the x.

With my partners if I raise to 2♥, it roughly shows the equivalent of:

1x - 1♥;
3♥

Therefore, with the right 6-7 points, I expect partner to make a move forward over 2♥.

3♥ is reserved for better hands, but not quite a 2♣ opener.

[jdonn]

Just yesterday I played at the club and held

Axxx xxx Kxxx Ax

I doubled 1♣ on my right, it went 1♦ on my left, 1♠ by partner, pass back to me. I'm not saying everyone would raise on this simply because it has four spades, but I gather from the comments that many people would? But wouldn't you know it, I passed, we played it there, and we made 1.

I don't think I'll be changing my mind on this issue any time soon.

[Phil]

hanp, on Jun 1 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

Asking random stars is pointless.

LOL; Match up four of the top 10 posters (number, not ability) against four random stars in a 12 board team game. I would spot the random stars 1 IMP per board.

My wallet would be quite fat after awhile.

[ArtK78]

jdonn, on Jun 1 2009, 10:43 AM, said:

Just yesterday I played at the club and held

Axxx xxx Kxxx Ax

I doubled 1♣ on my right, it went 1♦ on my left, 1♠ by partner, pass back to me. I'm not saying everyone would raise on this simply because it has four spades, but I gather from the comments that many people would? But wouldn't you know it, I passed, we played it there, and we made 1.

I don't think I'll be changing my mind on this issue any time soon.

That was a pretty lucky result. But against most opponents, if you have a 4-4 spade fit and you can make only 7 tricks in spades, you will not be allowed to play it there.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Jun 1 2009, 11:22 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 1 2009, 10:43 AM, said:

Just yesterday I played at the club and held

Axxx xxx Kxxx Ax

I doubled 1♣ on my right, it went 1♦ on my left, 1♠ by partner, pass back to me. I'm not saying everyone would raise on this simply because it has four spades, but I gather from the comments that many people would? But wouldn't you know it, I passed, we played it there, and we made 1.

I don't think I'll be changing my mind on this issue any time soon.

That was a pretty lucky result. But against most opponents, if you have a 4-4 spade fit and you can make only 7 tricks in spades, you will not be allowed to play it there.

That's what people think, but they often do, and even if they don't you haven't usually harmed yourself by bidding 2 later.

You'd really be shocked. One of my best strategies over time has been passing a weak two bid on certain hands with three card support. People forget the opponents don't know how many trumps we have.

[Phil]

jdonn, on Jun 1 2009, 11:27 AM, said:

One of my best strategies over time has been passing a weak two bid on certain hands with three card support. People forget the opponents don't know how many trumps we have.

Agree with this too. It takes -200 out of the equation a lot.

[bid_em_up]

Phil, on Jun 1 2009, 10:50 AM, said:

hanp, on Jun 1 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

Asking random stars is pointless.

LOL; Match up four of the top 10 posters (number, not ability) against four random stars in a 12 board team game. I would spot the random stars 1 IMP per board.

My wallet would be quite fat after awhile.

Given that you would be in the top 10 (under pclayton), of course it would. You would select yourself and toss IMP's by the bucket.

[Phil]

bid_em_up, on Jun 1 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

Given that you would be in the top 10 (under pclayton), of course it would.

Look pclayton doesn't exist anymore OK? He was thrown out of town after he bid 5♥ one too many times, didn't make takeout doubles on 4333 13 counts, never pre-balanced, and preempted according to the vulnerabilty.

I do see he makes an occasional appearance though. I think he's hiding out in the desert area or something dunno.

[precpj]

I assume I am not here to argue:

"A cue bid by the takeout doubler does not promise (or deny) support, so the option of a cue bid and passing a 2♥ rebid exists but has no special meaning. " per ArtK78

"LOL; Match up four of the top 10 posters (number, not ability) against four random stars in a 12 board team game. I would spot the random stars 1 IMP per board. " Per Phil

"asking random stars is pointless" per hangp

the issue is how to bid a game with the hand you hold that you see versus a possible hand ranging fom the real hand I showed

XX QJXXX XX QJXX to a bust hand he was forced to bid with 1H after the takeout double. The majority of stars and participants here with the same bid do share the shadow with a possible hand the 1H bidder might have such as XXX XXXX XXX XXX or even worse XXX XXX XXXX XXX

I was expecting a few participants here could give applause to the bidding sequence one turkish star offer ( be him a random or not) :

P P 1D X
P 1H

[precpj]

sorry i hit the wrong keystroke right before i finish the writing :

P P 1D X
1H P P 2D
repeating

he would bid 4H on any rebid other than 2H ; and press on with 3H versus the 2H rebid

Precpj

[jdonn]

precpj, on Jun 1 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

sorry i hit the wrong keystroke right before i finish the writing :

P P 1D X
1H P P 2D
repeating

he would bid 4H on any rebid other than 2H ; and press on with 3H versus the 2H rebid

Precpj

So what has he gained over bidding 3♥ immediately, and letting his partner bid 4 when it's right?

[Lobowolf]

Phil, on Jun 1 2009, 10:26 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 1 2009, 12:36 AM, said:

I think rebidding after a takeout double is probably the area of bidding that has changed the most in the relatively short time since I learned to play bridge. I first learned raising shows significant extras (this hand), raising to 3 shows very significant extras, and cuebidding showed something like the equivalent of a 2♣ opener and tended to deny direct support for partner (since if you had it you could just raise). But now that people want to raise with less and less, the double raise is much lighter, and the cuebid is often made on a wide variety of hands with a lot less extra values than I first learned were needed, and may or may not have support.

I'm trying to keep up. I think 2♥ was right 10 or 15 years ago and 3♥ is right (meaning expected by an expert across from you) today. But this is one of the only areas in which I consider myself old fashioned, and I would really prefer to be able to just bid 2♥ on this. I don't want to go down in 3♥ sometimes just for the joy of raising without any real extras when the opponents aren't even fighting for the hand yet.

Great stuff Josh, and not because I totally agree.

Josh and Phil - thanks for making me feel less old. Agree 110%.

It seems like the 2♥ nowadays means something, "In case you didn't see it the first time, or don't believe me, I have a takeout double" (i.e. an opening hand and support for the unbid suits -- including hearts).

If the adjunct is that I have to play at the 3-level with 16 or 17 opposite a forced response, then in this respect, for my money, thanks but no thanks on the "modern trend."

[ArtK78]

precpj, on Jun 1 2009, 12:53 PM, said:

I assume I am not here to argue:

"A cue bid by the takeout doubler does not promise (or deny) support, so the option of a cue bid and passing a 2♥ rebid exists but has no special meaning. " per ArtK78

You took this out of context - it was part of a non-standard system of bidding after a takeout double.

Having said that, I still don't understand the point you were trying to make.

[kenrexford]

The_Hog, on May 31 2009, 10:32 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Jun 1 2009, 10:24 AM, said:

Partner has values.  If he was a complete bust, RHO or LHO would do something more than has happened so far.  So, bid where you live.  3♥.

2♥ is right on shape.  If you changed the A-K of clubs to the 3-2, that's a 2♥ hand.

So you would raise to 2H on
♠AT63 ♥AK72♦632♣32

Nice when partner has xxx xxx xxxx xxx
You can change a couple of xs to a couple of Qs and Js.

Partner has values? He hasn't shown them.

Partner doesn't have to show values. The opponents have passed throughout. I'll pay off to the pair who with a combined 31 HCP finds all of these passes and then catches us in the rare 7-fit.

Now, admittedly changing A-K to 3-2 was a bit overboard. A bit.

[the hog]

precpj, on Jun 1 2009, 09:21 PM, said:

Here are the responses when I posed this to Stars " Hi may I please ask how u would rebid after making a takeout X as the bidding went P P 1D X P 1H P (?)Your hand is : ATXX AKXX XXX AK " and more than a dozen of them came back with their help gracefully.

The major majority of them voiced 2H along with their remarks:

"2H; 2h shows a big hand "
"1H could be a forced 3 cards preference with busted hand "
"I can not argue agaisnt 3H "

when I asked one 2H replier " how do u score the answers 2D 2H or 3H " "3H is worst .." He did like the 2D suggestion I meant to ask how they will score as in "It is your call" in the ACBL Bulletine

2 ( out of north america) came in with 3H and one from Far East with 4H ( i wonder if the star follow the sequence I posed.

it is very fun to collect 3 2D replies from them ; one of the 3 came in 2H first and changed to 2D while i was expressing my gratitude. the most interesting one is the turkish star who shared his trend of thoughts

" i bid 2d and bid game if my partner rebid is other than 2H; on 2h rebid i push on with 3H " a great process of communication

well it is time to reveal the hand of the 1H bidder

♠XX ♥QJ654♦54 ♣QJ94 a perfect bingo

I have invited the Host ( expert rated) who was about to boot me at the table ( 2D and 2H were 100 % incorrect in his view ) and the oppo who politely voiced his 3H choice to read or join the discussion here. After all , I would like to remind them again Life is a never ending process

Precpj

Well you see this is interesting. I would have bid 2H with this hand as responder to the doubler. I have a 5th heart and all of my points are concentrated in 2 suits. This is a 6 point hand only for bean counters. And "yes" I know I have only quacks, but still, this is far better than a 2H bid imo.

[the hog]

precpj, on Jun 1 2009, 09:21 PM, said:

Here are the responses when I posed this to Stars " Hi may I please ask how u would rebid after making a takeout X as the bidding went P P 1D X P 1H P (?)Your hand is : ATXX AKXX XXX AK " and more than a dozen of them came back with their help gracefully.

The major majority of them voiced 2H along with their remarks:

"2H; 2h shows a big hand "
"1H could be a forced 3 cards preference with busted hand "
"I can not argue agaisnt 3H "

when I asked one 2H replier " how do u score the answers 2D 2H or 3H " "3H is worst .." He did like the 2D suggestion I meant to ask how they will score as in "It is your call" in the ACBL Bulletine

2 ( out of north america) came in with 3H and one from Far East with 4H ( i wonder if the star follow the sequence I posed.

it is very fun to collect 3 2D replies from them ; one of the 3 came in 2H first and changed to 2D while i was expressing my gratitude. the most interesting one is the turkish star who shared his trend of thoughts

" i bid 2d and bid game if my partner rebid is other than 2H; on 2h rebid i push on with 3H " a great process of communication

well it is time to reveal the hand of the 1H bidder

♠XX ♥QJ654♦54 ♣QJ94 a perfect bingo

I have invited the Host ( expert rated) who was about to boot me at the table ( 2D and 2H were 100 % incorrect in his view ) and the oppo who politely voiced his 3H choice to read or join the discussion here. After all , I would like to remind them again Life is a never ending process

Precpj

Well you see this is interesting. I would have bid 2H with this hand as responder to the doubler. I have a 5th heart and all of my points are concentrated in 2 suits. This is a 6 point hand only for bean counters. And "yes" I know I have only quacks, but still, this is far better than a 2H bid imo.

[sfi]

precpj, on Jun 2 2009, 12:21 AM, said:

well it is time to reveal the hand of the 1H bidder

♠XX ♥QJ654♦54 ♣QJ94 a perfect bingo

I have invited the Host ( expert rated) who was about to  boot me at the table ( 2D and 2H were 100 % incorrect in his view ) and the oppo who politely voiced his 3H choice to read or join the discussion here.

This is a maximum for the 1♥ bid (and I wouldn't argue with an initial 2♥ bid), so not bidding over a raise is very poor. IMO this hand gets the bulk of the blame for missing game.

[hanp]

An initial 2H bid with that hand is absurd in my humble opinion, and I think the hand does not act over a 2H bid. This is nowhere near a maximum 1H bid.

[the hog]

hanp, on Jun 2 2009, 12:08 PM, said:

An initial 2H bid with that hand is absurd in my humble opinion, and I think the hand does not act over a 2H bid. This is nowhere near a maximum 1H bid.

Not that I'm trying to convince you, but from
a 4333 garbage hand to the posted one is a very wide range. the posted hand is an 8 loser hand after all.

[jdonn]

I'm with han and it's not even close. Even if it's a nice 6 it doesn't matter. I don't open 1NT with a nice 12 either.