[the hog]

"I don't open 1NT with a nice 12 either. "

Josh, that is a silly comment. That remark has no relevance at all.

[mich-b]

sfi, on Jun 1 2009, 11:44 PM, said:

precpj, on Jun 2 2009, 12:21 AM, said:

well it is time to reveal the hand of the 1H bidder

♠XX ♥QJ654♦54 ♣QJ94 a perfect bingo

I have invited the Host ( expert rated) who was about to  boot me at the table ( 2D and 2H were 100 % incorrect in his view ) and the oppo who politely voiced his 3H choice to read or join the discussion here.

This is a maximum for the 1♥ bid (and I wouldn't argue with an initial 2♥ bid), so not bidding over a raise is very poor. IMO this hand gets the bulk of the blame for missing game.

I think this hand is an easy 1♥ rather than 2♥ , but when pd (the doubler) raises to 2♥ , I think bidding anything less than 4♥ is an underbid.

[Codo]

Of course the 1 ♥ bidder was wrong not to bid game after 2 ♥.
But maybe he was a modern player who thought that 2 ♥ from partner does not show more then 13-14 HCPS.

For bidding 1 or 2 heart with his hand: IN NA this is a no brainer, 1 Heart can be even stronger then this.
In Germany (and obviously iN Astralia) taste differs and I have sympathy for a 2 HEart bid but I would not choose it.

[precpj]

2h response to the X is out of the circle of good bridge I can bet my pocket on that:) 2H is commonly played as 9+ HCP 4+ card as a non passed hand ; since the 1H bidder was a passed hand 2H would be close to at most a Q away from open 4+ cards

so is the raise of 2H with a less than 16 total support points

bidding 2H as I did at the table risks the pass as it happned at the table

3H raise runs the risk of a bust hand

if you are going along these thoughts which are also similarly echoed by many stars ( I asked many more ) I approached for help, why not consider the merit of 2D ? which happens to be as popular as 2H if not more. After all 2D cue is a free option

my nick is precpj ; in case you want to know whom I ask please leave the message calling " asking stars randomly is pointless.." etc or tossing dirt on general skills of Stars is a sad encounter in this excercise

Precpj

[Codo]

Why do you like to have million ways to raise heart but no bid for a hand where you are strong but cannot bid NT?

I would bid 2 Diamond with the later.

Sorry, but passing 2 Heart is "out of the circle of good bridge" when you know that partner promised 4 hearts and 16+ HCPs.

You bid your hand the same way with xxx,xxx,xxxxx,xx and with the given hand?

A direct 2 ♥ answer to the X is a much lesser dissortion of the hand (it still is of course an overbid).

[bid_em_up]

deleted

[bid_em_up]

precpj, on May 31 2009, 07:28 PM, said:

Playing with a first time pick up partner....

While 2♥ may be the correct call, given the context of the question, you absolutely must bid 3♥, as it is the call partner would make if he held this hand.

[jdonn]

The_Hog, on Jun 2 2009, 12:53 AM, said:

"I don't open 1NT with a nice 12 either. "

Josh, that is a silly comment. That remark has no relevance at all.

No, your argument is essentially "I have 6, but it's a very good 6." But 6 is so much outside the range of the bid you are suggesting that my "silly" comment is exactly equivalent to the argument you are making. Even if you don't realize it.

[mikeh]

I am late to this thread, so don't have a lot to offer over and above what has been posted. I am, however, very much with josh and the others who think this hand is worth only a 2♥ bid.

Yes, it is sexy to bid a lot..... but my experience has been that overbidding doesn't actually work all that well

If 1♥ shows 0-8 hcp, as it does in all standard approaches with which I am familiar, there can be only 2 reasons to bid 2♥ as the doubler.

One would be preemptive... we are afraid that LHO will successfully balance.

Wait a sec... this is the LHO who PASSED over our double? And if he does balance, are we then barred if we hold a decent double with 4 card support?

Yes, on occasion, the opps will back in successfully and push us to the 3-level.... but this will occur infrequently, given their passivity to this point.

The second reason is to invite game: we announce to partner that opposite a 0-8 hand, we have game interest.... and with the actual hand he ought to be shot if he passed 2♥... maybe, with no Aces or Kings, he might decide only to raise to 3♥, but then we, with a heavy 2♥ raise, bid game.

The alternative so-called 'modern' approach will get us overboard many times. In particular, having to bid 3♥ on this hand is a recipe for -100 against +110... and I don't care who you are... spot the opps 5 imps on baby hands like this, and they rate to beat you like a drum.

While the scheme I (and I suspect others) learned long ago may be 'old', it is still logical:

pass: normal double

2♥: interest in game opposite a max

3♥: interest in game opposite anything better than a horrible hand

cue then raise hearts: interest in slam opposite a max.

Note: double then cue doesn't promise 4 hearts but does create a forcing auction.

[aguahombre]

mikeh, on Jun 2 2009, 10:37 AM, said:

While the scheme I (and I suspect others) learned long ago may be 'old', it is still logical:

pass: normal double

2♥: interest in game opposite a max

3♥: interest in game opposite anything better than a horrible hand

cue then raise hearts: interest in slam opposite a max.

Note: double then cue doesn't promise 4 hearts but does create a forcing auction.

"old" is good enough for me, provided (also an old concept) that my takeout doubles show takeout double hands, and not just 13 cards.

[sfi]

Codo, on Jun 2 2009, 09:11 PM, said:

A direct 2 ♥ answer to the X is a much lesser dissortion of the hand (it still is of course an overbid).

It's not that much of an overbid. Give partner a perfect minimum of:

Axxx ATxx x ATxx

And you would be unlucky not to make an overtrick in game.

You do have an eight loser hand with a five card, an expected double fit, and finesses will be taken through the strong hand. And you know that most of partner's values will be working.

If partner has something like:

KQJx Kxx Ax xxxx

then you may go down in 2♥, but your opponents can make 3♦ and may not be able to bid it.

[kenrexford]

On this one, Herbert Neg's work again.

[655321]

But Ken, everything works on this hand, it is hardly possible to stay out of game.

For me, 1♥ 3♥ 4♥.
For jdonn, 1♥ 2♥ 4♥.
Even for hog, 2♥ 4♥

[kenrexford]

655321, on Jun 2 2009, 07:54 PM, said:

But Ken, everything works on this hand, it is hardly possible to stay out of game.

For me, 1♥ 3♥ 4♥.
For jdonn, 1♥ 2♥ 4♥.
Even for hog, 2♥ 4♥

But, Herbert avoids playing 3♥-1 when partner has crap. And, Herbert makes it easier for both sides. Easier is often nice.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Jun 2 2009, 08:13 PM, said:

655321, on Jun 2 2009, 07:54 PM, said:

But Ken, everything works on this hand, it is hardly possible to stay out of game.

For me, 1♥ 3♥ 4♥.
For jdonn, 1♥ 2♥ 4♥.
Even for hog, 2♥ 4♥

But, Herbert avoids playing 3♥-1 when partner has crap.

So does jdonn. And I think so does hog.

[precpj]

Do we all virtually agree the 1H bidder MUST NOT pass holding the real hand at the table when he hears the 2H raise ?

♠42 ♥QJ654♦54♣QJ94

By the way some stars voice against 2D in favor of 2H since they play as "deny 4 card support " ; for those many who favor the 2D I would assume that when they think the big hand holder is the Captain: the trump has been set "

At the table, i was indeed shocked with the pass ; managed to be very polite and calm when i was lectured " both 2D and 2H are 100 % incorrect " and I was told to be booted after that hand.

another note is: I have many known champions help out very gracefully; that spirit makes me love this game more "

thanks all for the discusssion ; dont be surprised if this ever shows up on the ACBL bulletine

Precpj; a Life Novice and fake expert at most

[precpj]

Just in case you care:

the 2D is a clear winner among champions ; they are NOT random stars

i.e bidding a cue 2D WITH 4 cards support is more updated than WITHOUT

Precpj

[hanp]

ok who are these champions.