[Phil]

By a passed hand, what is your preferred treatment for:

Pass - 1♠
3♠?

[dicklont]

Are you sure this is your question, or do you mean
pass - 1♣
3♠
This would be a splinter for clubs.
Normally that requires opening values, I wonder why I passed first.

[Phil]

dicklont, on Apr 7 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

Are you sure this is your question, or do you mean
pass - 1♣
3♠
This would be a splinter for clubs.
Normally that requires opening values, I wonder why I passed first.

Yes, I'm quite sure that I asked the question correctly.

[whereagles]

You can play it as preemptive. That isn't optimal, but gets credit for simplicity.

The best use is probably a mixed raise of spades. 4 card spade, 2 top cards somewhere.

[FrancesHinden]

I play it as 5332, mixed raise type values.

[ArtK78]

I don't see much reason for playing the double raise by a passed hand as purely preemptive. The opponents don't seem inclined to enter the auction.

When I was playing constructive major suit raises by a passed hand, the meaning of a jump raise was a hand too good for a constructive raise - essentially a hand that was now worth an opening bid. But if you play Drury or some other artificial strong raise by a passed hand, I don't see why you would want to make a jump raise for a normal strong passed hand raise. So it should have a very well defined meaning.

I would play it as a strong mixed raise - 4 or 5 card support, limit raise strength.

The only other possibility would be a real mixed raise - less than limit raise strength, but still 4 or 5 card support.

[jdonn]

I play it as a limit raise based on distribution rather than strength. I guess for some people that's the same as a mixed raise, but I make extremely light mixed raises so I have to refer to it differently.

[kenrexford]

Kind of mixed/limit. We call it "limix," meaning a mixed raise in HCP, probably five trumps, and some sort of distributiuonal value that increases the playing strength to limit.

Thus, kind of what Josh plays.

[JLOL]

mixed obv

[peachy]

No weak jumps by a passed hand, there is nothing to pre-empt when both opponents have already passed once. By my logic, this 3S is a maximum 4-card limit raise, typically with a singleton.

[RichMor]

Same as
1♠ - 3♠

It's good to keep meanings the same for a passed hand raise, subject to a downward revision of strength if an original raise was forcing of course.

Also like to play
P - 1♠
2NT
as a raise if that's your treatment for a non-passed hand response. It would tend to show a hand that was almost an opening bid.

RichM

[Phil]

I actually held QT9xx Kx Qxx xxx. This FELT like a 3♠ call to me LOL.

[the hog]

RichMor, on Apr 8 2009, 03:33 AM, said:

Same as
1♠ - 3♠

It's good to keep meanings the same for a passed hand raise, subject to a downward revision of strength if an original raise was forcing of course.

Also like to play
P - 1♠
2NT
as a raise if that's your treatment for a non-passed hand response. It would tend to show a hand that was almost an opening bid.

RichM

I agree with Rich.

[jdonn]

I don't understand. If every bid stays the same except for accounting for being a passed hand, is 2NT a limit raise? And then 3♠ is also a limit raise? And then drury can't have four cards?

[the hog]

Well Josh, personally I don't play Drury. If I did I would agree with you. 3S for me shows a more shapely raise, whereas 2NT would be a squarer raise with just under opening strength. Can't speak for Rich, of course.

[Phil]

By the way, the option for FJ in clubs wasn't a typo. I think its a perfectly reasonable style to play after p - 1M - ? :

2♣ = Drury
2N = 5-5 minors
3♣ = Clubs, 9-11
3M = FJ in clubs.

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on Apr 8 2009, 03:33 AM, said:

Well Josh, personally I don't play Drury. If I did I would agree with you. 3S for me shows a more shapely raise, whereas 2NT would be a squarer raise with just under opening strength. Can't speak for Rich, of course.

If you don't play Drury, I guess opener is barred from opening 1M on 4 cards, no?

[the hog]

whereagles, on Apr 8 2009, 04:24 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Apr 8 2009, 03:33 AM, said:

Well Josh, personally I don't play Drury. If I did I would agree with you. 3S for me shows a more shapely raise, whereas 2NT would be a squarer raise with just under opening strength. Can't speak for Rich, of course.

If you don't play Drury, I guess opener is barred from opening 1M on 4 cards, no?

Not on a good 4 carder.

[RichMor]

The_Hog, on Apr 7 2009, 10:33 PM, said:

Well Josh, personally I don't play Drury. If I did I would agree with you. 3S for me shows a more shapely raise, whereas 2NT would be a squarer raise with just under opening strength. Can't speak for Rich, of course.

Ron,

You can speak for me since you said the same thing I would have said.

Josh,

Yes sort of. A limit raise by a passed hand shows more shape and a 2NT response by a passed hand shows more strength. Both would deliver good 4-card support or maybe 5-card support. If the opening was on a 4-card suit this gives some protection.

If you play Drury as well, then 2♣ shows 3-card or weak 4-card support.

Of course this all goes out the window if pard opens dreck in third position.

RichM

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on Apr 8 2009, 09:26 AM, said:

whereagles, on Apr 8 2009, 04:24 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Apr 8 2009, 03:33 AM, said:

Well Josh, personally I don't play Drury. If I did I would agree with you. 3S for me shows a more shapely raise, whereas 2NT would be a squarer raise with just under opening strength. Can't speak for Rich, of course.

If you don't play Drury, I guess opener is barred from opening 1M on 4 cards, no?

Not on a good 4 carder.

You mean you're ok with driving to the 3 level on what could be a 4-3 fit?