[Cascade]

Scoring: IMP

(1♥) Pass (2♠*) ?

* 0-? "Less than an opening hand" "yes it could be nought"

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I found this one tough.

My options seemed to be 3NT or an underbid of 2NT. I even flirted with PASS.

[the hog]

Looks like an obvious x to me. Don't like any of your options Wayne.

[Cascade]

The_Hog, on Mar 8 2009, 09:42 PM, said:

Looks like an obvious x to me. Don't like any of your options Wayne.

Sure double is an option too.

But it is hardly ideal. You offer partner a choice of two three-card suits (minors) and will probably have to guess on the next round.

[whereagles]

The worst normal shape that pard can have is 2344, but, even with a 5 card minor, pard is bound to bid a mere 3m (or 2NT+3m, if you play leb here), leaving you with a guess anyway.

So I prefer a 2NT underbid. Given the flat shape and bad HCP placement, you don't want pard to bid over this with 4-5 hcp anyway. If he bids 3, you're virtually a lock for it.

[FrancesHinden]

I don't see the point of double unless it's penalties.

[y66]

3N for me at IMPS and MPs.

[mtvesuvius]

3NT... It may make, it may go down. It's a risk I will take at IMPs and even MPs.

[OleBerg]

3NT.

Trying to cater for the hands, where there is exactly eight tricks in NT, is much to ambitious.

[hanp]

I pass, would bid if the opponents were NV.

[P_Marlowe]

X, followed by 3NT.

The question is, if 2NT in this sitiuation is natural,
I dont know, and I dont know, if 3NT is natural
either, so I would go via the route X, followed by
3NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[cherdanno]

I would pass.

[jdonn]

3NT for me. 2NT is not unreasonable but it seems too heavy. I understand someone considering pass but think it is too pessimistic. And I don't think double is a bad bid since partner is certainly allowed to be very weak with a five or six card minor, but I think it's shooting at too small a target.

I think that covers everything. So I prefer 3NT but there are other fair alternatives, and even though i flirted with pass in my mind it is my least favorite choice in the end.

[the hog]

FrancesHinden, on Mar 8 2009, 07:33 PM, said:

I don't see the point of double unless it's penalties.

Don't you? Well then I guess you don't play Lebensohl in these auctions. On the other hand, I do.

[Cascade]

The_Hog, on Mar 9 2009, 02:40 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Mar 8 2009, 07:33 PM, said:

I don't see the point of double unless it's penalties.

Don't you? Well then I guess you don't play Lebensohl in these auctions. On the other hand, I do.

I am not sure where your cut off is for Lebensohl but it seems it would only partially solve the problem here.

Normally 3-level bids start at around 7-8 HCP when I have played Lebensohl in this sort of situation. Here there are many 4-6 HCP where 3NT might be reasonable.

[the hog]

Cascade, on Mar 9 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 9 2009, 02:40 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Mar 8 2009, 07:33 PM, said:

I don't see the point of double unless it's penalties.

Don't you? Well then I guess you don't play Lebensohl in these auctions. On the other hand, I do.

I am not sure where your cut off is for Lebensohl but it seems it would only partially solve the problem here.

Normally 3-level bids start at around 7-8 HCP when I have played Lebensohl in this sort of situation. Here there are many 4-6 HCP where 3NT might be reasonable.

There are just enough available points for partner to bid 3m here Wayne, and if she does, well...
If she bids via 2NT you ca still bid 3NT - what have you lost?

[effervesce]

3NT for me. Partner with 4-6 pts won't be bidding game so you have to bid it yourself.

[Edmunte1]

There' no middle way here (dbl or 2NT) because you cannot involve partner in a decision here, it's only high-way 3NT and low-way pass.
My choice is the low-way pass because:
- we do not have a source of tricks
-A10x may be a illusory second stopper in ♥
-the spade length will provide maximum 2 tricks for us
-there's a bigger probability that partner is in 1-3 hcp range rather than 4-6 hcp range
-the win/loss raport is not in favour of bidding

[OleBerg]

Edmunte1, on Mar 9 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

There' no middle way here (dbl or 2NT) because you cannot involve partner in a decision here, it's only high-way 3NT and low-way pass.

I agree 100%

Quote

My choice is the low-way pass because:
- we do not have a source of tricks
-A10x may be a illusory second stopper in ♥
-the spade length will provide maximum 2 tricks for us
-there's a bigger probability that partner is in 1-3 hcp range rather than 4-6 hcp range
-the win/loss raport is not in favour of bidding

A lot of fair points, but:

- Source of tricks. (You are right, but partner might have.)
- Illusory stopper. (We know partner is very likely to have at least 3 hearts, and hearts might not be lead.)
- Spade lenght. (They are stoppers, not tricks.)
- Probabilety. (That might be, but the win is bigger when we are right. And there is 8 points floating out there.)
- Win/loss raport. (This is not an argument, but a conclusion based on the above arguments. I obviously disagree, as I bid 3NT. Pass could easily work out though, and I would never claim it to be a mistake. I'd rather call it a bold bid.)

Playing Lebensohl will do us no good (if we double), as partner will base his bid on us holding something that resembles 15 HCP.

[Codo]

Is xx,Qxx,Qxxxx,xxx too much to hope for?

And there are worse hands which have good chances.

3 NT.

[bid_em_up]

Imo, big hands with no clear direction and tolerance for the other suits should always start with double.

Get thru this round of bidding first and then worry about it later after seeing what partner does over the double.

(Wayne, I think your extra strength more than compensates for "only having 3 card support for either minor").

jmoo.