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"Experts" disagreed... WTP?

Poll: What's your call? And is it a problem? (58 member(s) have cast votes)

What's your call? And is it a problem?

  1. Pass (13 votes [22.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.41%

  2. 3S (28 votes [48.28%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.28%

  3. 3N (1 votes [1.72%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.72%

  4. 4C (3 votes [5.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.17%

  5. 4D (1 votes [1.72%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.72%

  6. 4H (12 votes [20.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.69%

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#1 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 14:00

You hold:

xx
Q
AT9xx
AT98x

After two passes, your LHO opens 2. Partner overcalls 3 and RHO passes. What is your call?

Is this even a problem? When I held this hand at the table, one of my expert opponents indicated that he thought this was a "WTP" hand, and that it was "obvious" to make a particular call. The call he wanted to make was my fourth choice on the list of six calls in the poll.... :D
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#2 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 14:11

Given partner is a passed hand I let this one go. If partner were an unpassed hand I would raise to 4.
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#3 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 14:12

Echognome, on Feb 17 2009, 03:11 PM, said:

Given partner is a passed hand I let this one go.  If partner were an unpassed hand I would raise to 4.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. YOU are a passed hand, partner is not. The auction is:

Pass - Pass - 2 - 3
Pass - ????

If you routinely open ten-counts with stiff queens just because they're five-five in the minors, sorry. Pretend you had to sub for me after my ridiculous second-seat pass. :D
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#4 User is offline   HeavyDluxe 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 14:13

I asked. AWM answered before I posted.
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#5 User is offline   MarkDean 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 14:15

I would bid 4, seems normal to me.
btw, do we not get form of scoring and vulnerability, or is the idea to see if it is such a wtp you do the same thing regardless (as I would)?
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#6 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 14:16

Surprised that an expert could call it a "wtp". No expert myself but am sure there will be votes for everything, maybe except for 4.

Maybe stupid question, but why the rush to bid 4? Suppose we bid 3, then we may or may not sit for p's 3NT, but wouldn't it be nice if he bids 4m over our 3?
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#7 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 14:19

I think a problem hand like this should have vulnerability and scoring format. Vulnerable at IMPs I think 4 is clear; I am not sure what I will do at MP (pass is now an option), or non-vul at IMPs.

In the latter instance I would likely also raise to 4, first of all because it's unlikely that we will have exactly 9 tricks available.

Roland
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#8 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 14:23

I'm strangely attracted to 3, leaving 3NT in the picture opposite AQx AKJxxx xx xx at MPs. This is by no means a wtp, and I'm torn between 3 and 4, however 5m may play better than 4, if partner rebids 4m I can raise to 5, otherwise bid 4. Also, MPs or IMPs and Vul. really make a difference here, pass may even be valid at MPs.

This post has been edited by mtvesuvius: 2009-February-17, 14:25

Yay for the "Ignored Users" feature!
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#9 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 14:29

It's nice to have discussed 3 doesn't promise support here, and anything else that stems from that agreement. If you are assuring me 3 promises heart support then I bid 4. I will try to leave any of the three suits other than spades in the picture.
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#10 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 14:38

jdonn, on Feb 17 2009, 03:29 PM, said:

It's nice to have discussed 3 doesn't promise support here, and anything else that stems from that agreement. If you are assuring me 3 promises heart support then I bid 4. I will try to leave any of the three suits other than spades in the picture.

True... 3 doesn't promise support IMO. It's like a LTT3NT type of bid also, essentially a Western Cuebid. So partner would show a spade stopper or a side 4 card minor, which is why I like 3.
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#11 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 14:53

awm, on Feb 17 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

Echognome, on Feb 17 2009, 03:11 PM, said:

Given partner is a passed hand I let this one go.  If partner were an unpassed hand I would raise to 4.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. YOU are a passed hand, partner is not. The auction is:

Pass - Pass - 2 - 3
Pass - ????

If you routinely open ten-counts with stiff queens just because they're five-five in the minors, sorry. Pretend you had to sub for me after my ridiculous second-seat pass. :)

Nope. I don't. Maybe playing a strong club, but not part of the problem. I will go with my 2nd selection then of bidding 4. Glad I had covered my bases.
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#12 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 15:14

jdonn, on Feb 17 2009, 10:29 PM, said:

If you are assuring me 3 promises heart support then I bid 4. I will try to leave any of the three suits other than spades in the picture.

Come to think of it a little deeper, I agree with jdonn. I like 4 better than 4.

- 1. Partner could have 5 hearts and 4+ clubs.
- 2. Partner could have 5 hearts and 4+ diamonds.
- 3. If he rebids hearts, I am happy too.

Roland
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#13 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 15:41

Why no vulnerability info?

Why no double as an option... does everyone play it as penalty (I don't).

If partner passes my double, then I rate to be happy what with my two aces, and stiff in partner's suit.

if he bids 4, again I rate to be happy

if he bids 3N, I will be delighted.. 6 hearts, a spade and 2 aces make for none easy tricks, and he will hold more than that

If he bids 4minor... well, I am not going to be really happy with that, but I can always prefer back to 4 and he will at least have a chance of going right if we belong in 5 minor.
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#14 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 15:44

mikeh, on Feb 17 2009, 11:41 PM, said:

Why no double as an option... does everyone play it as penalty (I don't).

You need to change the laws first, Mike :)

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#15 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 16:11

I think Mike and I need to brush up on our post reading. Given it's 2pm in the afternoon here, I can't even blame lack of coffee. :)
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#16 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 16:30

nor I, but the back pain meds might help :) I guess I saw someone's 3 bid and that morphed into thinking that rho had raised. Oh well.. the good news is that BBO software would have protected me from revealing my idiocy if I were playing online
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#17 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 16:52

I'd bid 4, hoepfully partner can tell I don't have a bunch of clubs that I didn't preempt.
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#18 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 16:53

Apollo81, on Feb 17 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

I'd bid 4, hoepfully partner can tell I don't have a bunch of clubs that I didn't preempt.

So, it's a fit non-jump?
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#19 User is offline   maggieb 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 17:09

I would bid 3S and it seems a wtp.

If JLOL were dead he would turn around in his grave reading the responses in this thread. :)
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#20 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2009-February-17, 17:14

Agree with Maggie.
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