[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     Pass  1NT
 Pass  3♣    Pass  3♥
 Pass  4♦    Pass  5♣
 Pass  5♦    Pass  Pass
 Pass  



After this disaster, my partner and I realized we need some more agreements.

He wants to play what the bots play: 2♠ relays to 3♣, 3♣ relays to 3♦; 3♦, 3♥, and 3♠ all show shortness and support for all other suits. On this hand I would have likely blasted 3nt with my 6♦'s or bid 2♠ as a weak take out to 3♣ pass/correct.

How would you bid it playing Bridge Base Advanced, how do the experts play it?

[han]

If 3C forces 3D, south shouldn't bid 3H.

By the way, relay means something different, this is a transfer.

[TylerE]

What was 3♥?

My preferred method is 2♠ -> 3♣, 2NT -> 3♦. If opener bids the in-between bid, rather than completing, it denies a good fit. With QJx, Kxx, Axxx, stuff like that, opener completes. Basically, good fit that can support a light 3NT bid. On the given hand, I think 1NT - 2NT - 3♦-3NT is a fine auction for the given hands.

A couple of practical notes here.

1N-2C-2any-2NT does not promise a 4 card major. This is how you handle all invites.
1N-2NT is also used on very weak hands with both minors. If opener denies a good diamond holding with 3♣, you play there.

[CSGibson]

I prefer that 1N-3m is a 6 card suit, invitational to 3N (around 6-8 HCP, decent suit).

I might use that vul at imps, but otherwise I would use 2♠ as minor suit stayman to get out in 3 diamonds. (suit isn't good enough for a 6 HCP invitation, put an outside Q in there and this is a good enough suit quality for me)

[jillybean]

han, on Dec 23 2008, 12:41 PM, said:

If 3C forces 3D, south shouldn't bid 3H.

We had no agreement of 3♣ here. 3♥ was "I have 4♥'s I hope you realise I dont know what 3♣ is"

[jillybean]

CSGibson, on Dec 23 2008, 01:09 PM, said:

I prefer that 1N-3m is a 6 card suit, invitational to 3N (around 6-8 HCP, decent suit).

This is how I learned it but it doesnt seem to be standard any longer.

[awm]

It is going to be difficult to find 3NT on this hand. The problem is that responder has only six points, and his diamond suit is really not very good. If you show some sort of diamond invite on these cards, then opener will accept with many hands on which game is quite poor (typically hands with only one diamond honor and some side suit only once-stopped). You might get there in a weak notrump system after a diamond raise or if you play different notrump ranges from standard.

With that out of the way, the most important thing is to have some agreements after your 1NT openings. There are many sets of methods over 1NT and a great deal of debate about which one is "best" for different notrump ranges (some of this debate is going on in the Non-Natural Systems forum right now). Regardless, any agreements are better than no agreements. North should be able to sign off in 3♦ and south should respect that.

[JLOL]

awm, on Dec 23 2008, 03:42 PM, said:

It is going to be difficult to find 3NT on this hand. The problem is that responder has only six points, and his diamond suit is really not very good.

LOL

[vuroth]

That's annoying.

I'm guessing that the bidding should be

1NT 3D (invitational, decent suit)
3NT (based on diamond holding)

and that his is so trivial, that all B/Is should intuitively know this?

Thanks for helping.

[the hog]

vuroth, on Dec 24 2008, 05:23 AM, said:

That's annoying.

I'm guessing that the bidding should be

1NT 3D (invitational, decent suit)
3NT (based on diamond holding)

and that his is so trivial, that all B/Is should intuitively know this?

Thanks for helping.

Really? So you are totally going to give up on the S suit?
I don't think its trivial at all.

[jdonn]

Hands like south's are tricky. For a suit they are clearly worth an upgrade out of 15-17, but for notrump they aren't necessarily. Overall I think it's better to upgrade a hand like south's. After a 1NT opening north should just sign off in diamonds, any invitational route seems like it will reach more bad games than good ones.

[jillybean]

I dont think it trivial either.
My pard bid 3♣ intending it as a relay to 3♦, I think 3♣ in invitational with 6 ♣'s but its been so long since Ive seen this auction I wasnt sure, Bridge Base Standard uses it to show weak with 55 in the minors.
1nt stayman and transfers are just dandy, like a lot of conventions players know and perhaps have agreed to the first level of bidding but go no further.

We need an agreement, we need it to fit with the rest of the system. Can someone tell me what the bots play, where I can find a descriptionÉ

Never mind, I found it. If anyone else is interested;

http://online.bridge...ystem_notes.php

[CSGibson]

jillybean2, on Dec 23 2008, 01:33 PM, said:

CSGibson, on Dec 23 2008, 01:09 PM, said:

I prefer that 1N-3m is a 6 card suit, invitational to 3N (around 6-8 HCP, decent suit).

This is how I learned it but it doesnt seem to be standard any longer.

It depends on what the rest of your agreements are. If you play 4 suit transfers, then it is wasteful to also play 1N-3m as 6 card invitational to 3N, as most transfer sequences will have a way of showing a hand that fits the minor (i.e., either breaking or not breaking the transfer, however your method).

I happen to play 2♠ as minor suit stayman, and 2N as a relay to 3♣, either to sign off or to show a 4-4-4-1 hand of at least game forcing strength. As a result, having 1N-3m as the invitational hand makes sense, as I don't have other ways of bidding it.

Are the methods necessarily the best? I'm not sure, but at least they fit together well enough to be playable.

[jillybean]

Thanks, my partner likes what the bots play so I`ll take a look at that.

[keylime]

I think you are being a bit hard on yourself here. Consider that Larry and I still find things out that need agreement...

On this hand when you don't know, don't make a bid that will definitely get more confusing. In essence don't try to recover.. I would have passed or bid 3NT. Bid what you think you can make.

[P_Marlowe]

One possible option is, to play 2S as transfer for
clubs and 2NT as transfer for diamonds.

The consequence is ,that you need to bid 2C even
without a 4 card major, since oyu no longer have
2NT.

2S in the seq.

1NT - 2C
2H - 2S

would show only 4 cards, ...

The above mentioned treatment would have worked well
on the given hand, since you would have detected the
fitting diamonds suits.
Opener would have super accepted the transfer with 3C,
and responder will bid 3NT.

Personally I dont play it that way, but it is a reasonable
approach, espesially, if you play 2S as transfer to clubs.
If 2S is either inv. or weak with a minor, than this is of
course a different treatment.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ArtK78]

I doubt that more than one in a hundred pairs would reach 3NT on these cards, and then mostly by accident. And I very much doubt that any pairs starting with a strong 1NT would get to game, as responder would automatically sign off short of game with only a 6 count.

Given that you are playing IMPs, the most likely spot to play this hand after a 1NT opening is 3♦. Responder will use whatever method he has at his disposal to arrive at 3♦, whether it be 2NT (using 4-suit transfers, a transfer to diamonds) (using another popular method, a transfer to clubs showing just clubs or both minors, responder corrects with diamonds) or some other method. Responder could bid Stayman, but if he doesn't find a 4-4 spade fit he will have to overbid his hand, as any bid after opener's response is invitational. Since the spade suit is so poor, it doesn't make much sense to try for a 4-4 spade fit when 3♦ should be a reasonable spot.

[jillybean]

I posted the hand not because we missed 3nt but rather because we had no agreement other than basic transfers and stayman.

[kenberg]

Many casual partnerships, mine included, have few agreements covering such hands. Here is something I use with some when I do have agreements. It's base on four suit transfers, with 2S a trf to clubs, 2N a trf to diamonds:

1N-2C-2H-2N: Invit, denying a major (would have gone 1N-2N if we hadn't made 2N a trf)

1N-2C-2H-2S: Invit with four spades.

1N-2C-2H-3D: Game forcing with four spades and long diamonds.

1N-2N(trf->Ds). Denies, or gives up on, a major. After this, responder might drop the auction in 3D or might move on, showing, or denying, a stiff:
1N-2N-3C(likes Ds) -3H. This shows a stiff heart, not a heart suit. With four hearts and long diamonds the auction begins 1N-2C.
1N-2N-3C-3N shows a slam invit (why else bother showing Ds) but no stiff.

This seems to work reasonably well when it comes up. It's an open question with me whether it is worth the price. Shortly after I began playing this way we had the following: 1N-(pass)-2C-(X). Not playing 4 suit trfs, it would have gone 1N-2N-3N. Unless opening leader was a genius, the lead would not have been a club and nine tricks roll in. After the actual auction with the double of 2C, 3N was hopeless. The point is that you, or at least I, get dealt a lot more flat invitational hands than minor hands where this gadgetry is useful. Sometimes it costs.

Anyway, playing this way and holding the given N hand my auction would go: 1N-2N-3C-3D-all pass. Pessimistic perhaps, but 3N needs a lot, 4S may not be on even if pard has four, and I cannot show both spades and diamonds (in my system) without forcing to game even when pard opened a 15 count. But this is at least partly a judgment call. Maybe some, using my agreements, would bid 1N-2C-2H-2S, invit. I wouldn't. It would be right to do so as the cards lie.

[blackshoe]

From The Bridge World's website:

Relay: an artificial, nondescriptive bid that asks partner for a description.
Transfer: (1) (noun) a bid that shows length in a different suit;
Transfer: (2) (noun) a call that asks partner to make a certain call regardless of his holding; [In this usage, also called Puppet.]
Marionette: (1) (noun) a transfer (meaning 2), after which partner will usually make the cheapest bid but is permitted to bid higher with special hands. (Compare with puppet.)
Puppet: (1) (noun) transfer (meaning 2) [= a call that asks partner to make a certain call regardless of his holding].

I don't know what you mean by "bots".

FWIW, I would prefer to bid this 1NT-2NT(1)-3♣(2)-3♥(3)-3NT, but I wouldn't call it "standard" (and it is a little pushy).

(1): Transfer to diamonds (meaning 1)
(2): Likes diamonds. 3 to a top honor or better.
(3): Heart shortage.