[skjaeran]

As to SJS, the responses I'm "used" to are, in order of priority:
1. Raise with Qx or better (xxx is worse than Qx).
2. Rebid the opening suit with HHxxx or better
3. Bid a new suit with honour concentration (HHx/AJT) or better
4. Bid 2NT with stoppers in the unbid suits.

I can't remember ever playing SJS in a regular partnership though, so I've never tried the above in practise.

[blackshoe]

P_Marlowe, on Sep 25 2008, 03:32 AM, said:

After 1D, I likey my options better, I have NMF or FSF
available, and I will be able to knoow, if partner is bal.
has min / max, and if happens to have a fit.

How would you feel if you had neither of those options available? That was the situation in which I found myself.

[P_Marlowe]

blackshoe, on Sep 25 2008, 03:14 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Sep 25 2008, 03:32 AM, said:

After 1D, I likey my options better, I have NMF or FSF
available, and I will be able to knoow, if partner is bal.
has min / max, and if happens to have a fit.

How would you feel if you had neither of those options available? That was the situation in which I found myself.

Assuming I dont play NMF, I prefer 1D even more.
Especially if I am the stronger player in the partnership.

The reason is simple, 1D will give partner the most room to
describe his hand.
NMF playes a role, if his next bid is 1NT, in this case I know,
that partner is bal. with 12-14.
I know as well, that we have a 8 card fit in the minor, I just
dont know, in which.
Most likely I will bid 6NT, accepting the fact, that I wont be
able to judge correctly, if we can make 7 or not.
.........................................................................................
Assuming partner responds 1M, we wont have a problem, if we
play FSF, if we dont play it, ... ok than I think I would bid 4NT,
which should be key card ask, having both kings, I dont need to
worry, if partner assumes Blackwood or RKCB, depending on the
answer I would go with 6NT or 7NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

I would just bid

1C - 1D
1NT - 4C.

Gerber.

[655321]

han, on Sep 25 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

I would just bid

1C - 1D
1NT - 4C.

Gerber.

What is wrong with

1♣ - 4♣.

Gerber. Saves a full round of bidding.

[rogerclee]

655321, on Sep 25 2008, 03:23 PM, said:

han, on Sep 25 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

I would just bid

1C - 1D
1NT - 4C.

Gerber.

What is wrong with

1♣ - 4♣.

Gerber. Saves a full round of bidding.

Han, you just got served.

[blackshoe]

I suppose that's okay - if that's your agreement. It isn't ours.

[skjaeran]

655321, on Sep 26 2008, 12:23 AM, said:

han, on Sep 25 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

I would just bid

1C - 1D
1NT - 4C.

Gerber.

What is wrong with

1♣ - 4♣.

Gerber. Saves a full round of bidding.

ROFL!

Since you still won't have any idea what's the correct contract, you should just bid 6NT at once. THAT saves at least another round of bidding.

[helene_t]

Agree with Harald and I might actually do it at matchpoints.

[lexlogan]

fred, on Sep 25 2008, 03:07 AM, said:

matmat, on Sep 25 2008, 03:00 AM, said:

if you have sjs followups discussed, then sure. if not 1d is forcing enough.

IMO it would be very wrong to jump shift with this hand.

In general I would say that you should not jump shift when you have a hand in which you plan to drive to slam regardless of how the bidding goes.

In general I would say that you should think of a jump shift as a "statement" as opposed to a "question". More specifically, the jump shifter's statement should pertain to the direction he is heading in - he should clarify his direction with his rebid (typically by setting trumps).

This hand has question written all over it. You don't know what trump suit (if any) you want to play in so you should give your partner as much space as possible to help you resolve this issue.

There is no need to panic as you will be able to maintain control of the auction regardless of what partner bids over your 1D response.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

This is the textbook American treatment of strong jump shifts -- don't jump unless you know where you're going. Albert Morehead and, as far as I've read, most British authorities take the opposite approach -- jump shift with strong hands lacking clear direction. (Morehead might, however, advise against jumping with a hand this strong.)

Clearly, playing with an American partner and lacking discussion, the jump is dangerous for two reasons -- far too many Americans assume weak jump shifts, and those who don't tend to bid passively over a SJS since they assume responder is captain of the auction.

But with any partner I have discussed this with, I'd certainly jump. The slight bidding space consumed by a two level jump is more than repaid by avoiding a later jump and avoiding tortuous fourth suit sequences on such a relatively balanced hand. (I tell my partners KQxx or AJxx is fine for a jump, no need to raise immediately without four card support.) So the bidding typically proceeds
1C-2D-2H or 2S, after which my 2NT bid leaves partner plenty of room to finish describing his hand.

Other possibilities include 1C-2D-3D; a welcome development, we have plenty of room to cue-bid toward grand slam. 1C-2D-3C; partner will be more inlcined to rebid a 5-card suit on this bidding, knowing the target is slam, not game, and we again have room for cue-bidding.

The most problematic sequence may be 1C-2D-2NT, but it is hard to see how we are worse off than after 1C-1D-1NT. Anything we bid is natural, game-forcing, and shows slam interest; after 1C-1D-1NT, we'll need artificial gadgetry to avoid being dropped, or we can just bash to slam (and then what did not jumping last round do for us?.) On the given hand I'd rebid 3C and expect partner to show 3-card support: 1C-2D-2NT-3C-3D, otherwise we have a club fit (lacking a four-card major, he must have 3 diamonds or 5 clubs) and partner can begin cue-bidding over my 3C.

[lexlogan]

The_Hog, on Sep 25 2008, 09:42 AM, said:

"reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

Uh Mike....???? That comment is totally meaningless, sorry. It either promises extra strength, (and I VEHEMENTLY feel that it should), or it doesn't. However this is a matter you must have agreed with your partner beforehand, surely.

"1c=2d
2h=is not extra......lol"

Absolutely is with anyone I have ever played with or will ever play with, regardless of system!

There is no bridge logic for 1C-2D-2H to be a "reverse", any more than 1C-1D-1H. The nature of a reverse is that opener forces responder to a higher level if he prefers opener's first suit. This is manifestly not the case after 1C-2D-2H; it is responder, not opener, who has forced the bidding to the three level.

If you've agreed Soloway jump shifts, responder has denied a side suit, so opener's 2H or 2S rebid can mean whatever you like. But playing sensible, Morehead On Bidding style jumps, responder does not deny a side suit and opener's rebids are natural. Some of my favorite jump shift sequences proceed
1x-2y-2z-3z; we've found a 4-4 fit at the three level in a clear-cut slam interest auction. The equivalent non-jump sequence is 1x-1y-1z-2f (fourth suit)-something-3z, which, while forcing, does not unambigously show slam interest.

(N.B.: 3 level jump shifts certainly crowd the bidding and should be more restricted than 2 level jumps, or they can be used artificially such as Bergen raises. But 2 level jumps often SAVE bidding space and simplify many auctions.)

[mike777]

I have often ranted about the meaning of reverses. As in previous posts I just refer people to the Bridge Encyclopedia.

"An unforced rebid at the level of two or more in a higher ranking suit than that bid originally-usually(not 100%) a strength showing bid"


So a reverse is not strong 100% and 1c=2d=2h is not strong. It is simply natural..

As for this hand I have np with 1d and not 2d but 1c=2d=2nt is not a problem, see my previous posts. I can find out if pard has the QD and key cards and more..npp even with clubs as trumps.

[smiffy]

mike777, on Sep 26 2008, 04:22 PM, said:

I have often ranted about the meaning of reverses. As in previous posts I just refer people to the Bridge Encyclopedia.

"An unforced rebid at the level of two or more in a higher ranking suit than that bid originally-usually(not 100%) a strength showing bid"


So a reverse is not strong 100% and 1c=2d=2h is not strong. It is simply natural..

As for this hand I have np with 1d and not 2d but  1c=2d=2nt is not a problem, see my previous posts. I can find out if pard has the QD and key cards and more..npp even with clubs as trumps.

@mike777: Does it really say "not 100%" in the Encyclopedia? I have a feeling this is an addition made by you in order to make your point clear, yes?
If so, you might want to quote - especially from an encyclopedia - "as is". If not, then please excuse that.
"Usually a strength showing bid" though means nothing else but "unless specifically agreed otherwise". No?

@ topic: The only advantage of an SJS here would be the immediate game force. I think this by no means outweighs the disadvantages of the loss of bidding space and the somewhat misdiscreption of the hand. Since the question - and aim - here is clearly wether you want a small or large slam in No Trump and not in Diamonds. Also a 2D response would tell me as opener that the responder has a game-forcing hand that might have rebid problems in achieving just that. I'd assume very strong and long (6+) diamonds and some outside honors. I'd certainly not expect a 2NT+ opener with 5 non-solid diamonds. Clearly 1D for me.

[mike777]

smiffy, on Sep 26 2008, 10:47 PM, said:

mike777, on Sep 26 2008, 04:22 PM, said:

I have often ranted about the meaning of reverses. As in previous posts I just refer people to the Bridge Encyclopedia.

"An unforced rebid at the level of two or more in a higher ranking suit than that bid originally-usually(not 100%) a strength showing bid"


So a reverse is not strong 100% and 1c=2d=2h is not strong. It is simply natural..

As for this hand I have np with 1d and not 2d but  1c=2d=2nt is not a problem, see my previous posts. I can find out if pard has the QD and key cards and more..npp even with clubs as trumps.

@mike777: Does it really say "not 100%" in the Encyclopedia? I have a feeling this is an addition made by you in order to make your point clear, yes?
If so, you might want to quote - especially from an encyclopedia - "as is". If not, then please excuse that.
"Usually a strength showing bid" though means nothing else but "unless specifically agreed otherwise". No?

@ topic: The only advantage of an SJS here would be the immediate game force. I think this by no means outweighs the disadvantages of the loss of bidding space and the somewhat misdiscreption of the hand. Since the question - and aim - here is clearly wether you want a small or large slam in No Trump and not in Diamonds. Also a 2D response would tell me as opener that the responder has a game-forcing hand that might have rebid problems in achieving just that. I'd assume very strong and long (6+) diamonds and some outside honors. I'd certainly not expect a 2NT+ opener with 5 non-solid diamonds. Clearly 1D for me.

no!

that is far far from what usually means.
and i put 100% in brackets and told you to read encyclopedia for more information.

if you think:
1c=2d true strong jump shift
2h=strong..i give up. only 40 hcp in deck.

If partner cannot rebid 2h with 5c and 4h and not STRONG i give up.


Frankly I am shocked no one else has posted this..

[Walddk]

mike777, on Sep 27 2008, 07:02 AM, said:

If partner cannot rebid 2h with 5c and 4h and not STRONG i give up.


Frankly I am shocked no one else has posted this..

I think only one poster said that 2♥ shows extras on this auction, so why you are shocked I don't know. However, it surprises me that your next bid over opener's 2NT rebid is 3♣.

At least I thought it would make an impression when Fred wrote ...

Mike777 - In the modern American style of bidding, 2D then 3C with Qxx of clubs is simply wrong. End of story. Some very experienced players have been trying to explain this to you, but it sounds to me that you are either not listening and/or you are just being stubborn.

Maybe you did not read it, or perhaps you chose to ignore it. You tell us that you will be able to find about ♦Q and everything else with your approach. I am not convinced on an auction like this:

1♣ - 2♦
2N - 3♣
4♣

Your partner thinks you have a huge hand with diamonds and excellent fit for clubs opposite what might be 3 cards when he rebid 2NT. Qxx doesn't qualify in my opinion.

It also surprises me that you are too stubborn to admit that it's more economical and therefore easier when you get opener's shape one level lower by responding 1♦. You are the one who jumps and take bidding space away on an auction where the opponents will not interfere.

"Good cards should be bid slowly" is a good rule of thumb for a hand that has no idea where you will end up.

Roland

[mike777]

Walddk, on Sep 27 2008, 01:17 AM, said:

mike777, on Sep 27 2008, 07:02 AM, said:

If partner cannot rebid 2h with 5c and 4h and not STRONG i give up.


Frankly I am shocked no one else has posted this..

I think only one poster said that 2♥ shows extras on this auction, so why you are shocked I don't know. However, it surprises me that your next bid over opener's 2NT rebid is 3♣.

At least I thought it would make an impression when Fred wrote ...

Mike777 - In the modern American style of bidding, 2D then 3C with Qxx of clubs is simply wrong. End of story. Some very experienced players have been trying to explain this to you, but it sounds to me that you are either not listening and/or you are just being stubborn.

Maybe you did not read it, or perhaps you chose to ignore it. You tell us that you will be able to find about ♦Q and everything else with your approach. I am not convinced on an auction like this:

1♣ - 2♦
2N - 3♣
4♣

Your partner thinks you have a huge hand with diamonds and excellent fit for clubs opposite what might be 3 cards when he rebid 2NT. Qxx doesn't qualify in my opinion.

Roland

this auction is easy after 3c =4c...as i posted.....days ago.

i can find all keycards and QD and more.

i just think 1d is more complicated, very, but ok.

[Trinidad]

mike777, on Sep 27 2008, 01:22 AM, said:

Walddk, on Sep 27 2008, 01:17 AM, said:

mike777, on Sep 27 2008, 07:02 AM, said:

If partner cannot rebid 2h with 5c and 4h and not STRONG i give up.


Frankly I am shocked no one else has posted this..

I think only one poster said that 2♥ shows extras on this auction, so why you are shocked I don't know. However, it surprises me that your next bid over opener's 2NT rebid is 3♣.

At least I thought it would make an impression when Fred wrote ...

Mike777 - In the modern American style of bidding, 2D then 3C with Qxx of clubs is simply wrong. End of story. Some very experienced players have been trying to explain this to you, but it sounds to me that you are either not listening and/or you are just being stubborn.

Maybe you did not read it, or perhaps you chose to ignore it. You tell us that you will be able to find about ♦Q and everything else with your approach. I am not convinced on an auction like this:

1♣ - 2♦
2N - 3♣
4♣

Your partner thinks you have a huge hand with diamonds and excellent fit for clubs opposite what might be 3 cards when he rebid 2NT. Qxx doesn't qualify in my opinion.

Roland

this auction is easy after 3c =4c...as i posted.....days ago.

i can find all keycards and QD and more.

i just think 1d is more complicated, very, but ok.

Mike,

For clarity's sake, I will repeat the original hand here:

♠AK
♥KQx
♦AKJTx
♣Qxx

This auction is not easy after:

1♣-2♦
2NT-3♣

1) Your bidding means that you are setting clubs as trumps, with a possibility for partner to opt for a diamond contract. Partner is captain. He will bid 4♣ on four card suits or five card suits. He might well bid 4♣ on a three card suit (♠xxxx ♥Axxx ♦Qx ♣AKx), expecting you to have a (12)55 distribution or better.

2) Since you will never find out whether partner has 3, 4 or 5 clubs, your plan is to take captaincy of the auction anyway and then decide whether to play 6NT or 7NT. If that is what you want then you are daisy picking. Just start the auction with 1♣-5NT and you will achieve your goal much more accurately and much faster, without showing anything to the opponents.

Rik

[lexlogan]

Trinidad, on Sep 27 2008, 07:51 AM, said:

For clarity's sake, I will repeat the original hand here:

♠AK
♥KQx
♦AKJTx
♣Qxx

This auction is not easy after:

1♣-2♦
2NT-3♣

1) Your bidding means that you are setting clubs as trumps, with a possibility for partner to opt for a diamond contract. Partner is captain. He will bid 4♣ on four card suits or five card suits. He might well bid 4♣ on a three card suit (♠xxxx ♥Axxx ♦Qx ♣AKx), expecting you to have a (12)55 distribution or better.

2) Since you will never find out whether partner has 3, 4 or 5 clubs, your plan is to take captaincy of the auction anyway and then decide whether to play 6NT or 7NT. If that is what you want then you are daisy picking. Just start the auction with 1♣-5NT and you will achieve your goal much more accurately and much faster, without showing anything to the opponents.

Rik

Rik,

3C means you are setting clubs as trumps only if that's what you've agreed it means. With a pickup partner familiar with American methods, that would be a reasonable assumption. But it is hardly the only possible meaning of 3C, and I doubt if there would be a world-wide consensus about that.

Since this thread is under the SAYC and 2/1 GF category, I suppose American methods should be assumed, however revolting.

[blackshoe]

The topic subtitle does say "Standard American"

[benlessard]

Quote

1. Raise with Qx or better (xxx is worse than Qx).

IMO a stiff Q and xxx is a clearcut raise. A SJS suggest a very good suit or a fit for partner.

AKJxx isnt good enough, Qxx isnt enough.