[P_Marlowe]

blackshoe, on Sep 24 2008, 09:30 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

---

Partner opens 1♣, RHO pases. Your call?

1D.

Assuming, we are talking about Soloway Jump Shifts,
I guess the plan would be 2D followed by ???,
most likely by a jump to 6NT, because with a bal. hand,
partner will bid 2NT, in other words you the follow ups
are not really exciting.

After 1D, I likey my options better, I have NMF or FSF
available, and I will be able to knoow, if partner is bal.
has min / max, and if happens to have a fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: And I liked to play SJS.

[Walddk]

mike777, on Sep 25 2008, 09:20 AM, said:

i have no doubt 1c=1d may get you there but is 2d really that bad?

Yes, it is that bad, and I tried to explain why. I even asked you how you would proceed if opener rebids 2M or 2NT. I also asked you if 2M is a reverse or not. Did you discuss that with your favorite partner?

You did not reply. Instead you are asking me what my post means. Sometimes I have a feeling that you don't read your own posts, let alone others, but just start rambling around in random fashion.

You are entitled to disagree with Fred, The Hog, me and other posters. By all means, go ahead and bid 2♦. In our views, you will be facing more problems later than if you had responded 1♦. You are not convinced even when we explain why. Fair enough. In that case we are not able to help you and you must look for guidance elsewhere.

Let me once and for all put it straight so that no misunderstanding is possible: 2♦ is seriously bad with that hand. You are not necessarily wrong because you walk alone with your view, but odds suggest that you are. I am sure you can find others who agree with you, but I doubt that they are not from the expert "community".

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on Sep 25 2008, 12:03 AM, said:

blackshoe, on Sep 25 2008, 12:02 AM, said:

Thanks all. Pretty much what I eventually concluded I should have done. At the table, I bid 2♦. Partner rebid 2NT, and I jumped to 6NT. Partner eschewed the diamond finesse, even though taking it would not jeopardize the contract, so missed the overtrick. She had, iirc, S QJxx H Axx D xx C AKxx.

The post-mortem was interesting. We had not discussed it, so I felt that we should both be on the same wavelength - that jump shifts were strong, not weak. But partner said after the hand "Nobody plays strong jump shifts anymore. I almost passed." 

Yeah, my bidding sucked.

lol just rebid 3c no problem yet........
you can always correct to 6nt....7nt later...


1c=2d
2nt=3c
4c=4d rkc now you take control....

no checkback
no 4sf

of course if no sjs 1d gets you there also. just more bids.

Depending of the version of SJS you are playing
3C showed a club fit, it is not artificial, i.e. you told
partner that you have 5-5 or at least 5-4, at least
if you happen to play Soloway JS.

Now you may survive painting a false picture, but
I would say, that you need to try harder to prove
that SJS works on this hand better than 1D combined
with FSF, one option may look like

1C - 2D
2NT (1) - 5NT (2)
7NT (3)

(1) most likely it says nothing about the strength,
i.e. opener could still have 15HCP, say with a 5-4
shape, denying 3 diamonds.
(2) quantitative invitation to 7NT.
(3) max, unfortunately 36HCP may mean, we may miss
an Ace, not likely, but possible.

And I repeat, I played SJS, and I liked to play it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: To answer Rolands question - 2M instead of 2NT is not
a reverse, it does not even show 5-4 (not 100% sure about
this one, I guess with 4441 I would bid 2NT, so 54 it is.

[mike777]

"Yes, it is that bad, and I tried to explain why. I even asked you how you would proceed if opener rebids 2M or 2NT. I also asked you if 2M is a reverse or not. Did you discuss that with your favorite partner?"




2major i play natural.
2nt would be 11-13 very very often....

in any case i rebid 3c not sure what the problem is.

not sure how 1d is better.

i repeat 1d much be much better?

btw with my fav pards i do not play sjs ..so I am guessing based on 1971..

[Walddk]

mike777, on Sep 25 2008, 09:48 AM, said:

"Yes, it is that bad, and I tried to explain why. I even asked you how you would proceed if opener rebids 2M or 2NT. I also asked you if 2M is a reverse or not. Did you discuss that with your favorite partner?"




2major i play natural.
2nt would be 11-13 very very often....

in any case i rebid 3c not sure what the problem is.

not sure how 1d is better.

i repeat 1d much be much better?

btw with my fav pards i do not play sjs ..so I am guessing based on 1971..

There is nothing other to say than you have not understood the issue. You play 2 major natural, you write. Bleeding obvious. 2nt would be 11-13 very very often.... Pray tell, what else can it be (apart from 12-14)? So it's not often, it's always.

But did you tell us if 2M in your partnerhip(s) is a reverse or not? And can you tell us why you bid 3♣ over a 2NT rebid? Did opener promise 5 at any stage? Your strong jump shift muddles the waters. That's a fact.

You seem to be focused on getting your point count across right away, but you have put little effort into the subsequent auction. It's easy to bid 2♦; it's more difficult to get the auction right after that.

Roland

[mike777]

Walddk, on Sep 25 2008, 03:21 AM, said:

mike777, on Sep 25 2008, 09:48 AM, said:

"Yes, it is that bad, and I tried to explain why. I even asked you how you would proceed if opener rebids 2M or 2NT. I also asked you if 2M is a reverse or not. Did you discuss that with your favorite partner?"




2major i play natural.
2nt would be 11-13 very very often....

in any case i rebid 3c not sure what the problem is.

not sure how 1d is better.

i repeat 1d much be much better?

btw with my fav pards i do not play sjs ..so I am guessing based on 1971..

There is nothing other to say than you have not understood the issue. You play 2 major natural, you write. Bleeding obvious. 2nt would be 11-13 very very often.... Pray tell, what else can it be (apart from 12-14)? So it's not often, it's always.

But did you tell us if 2M in your partnerhip(s) is a reverse or not? And can you tell us why you bid 3♣ over a 2NT rebid? Did opener promise 5 at any stage? Your strong jump shift muddles the waters. That's a fact.

You seem to be focused on getting your point count across right away, but you have put little effort into the subsequent auction. It's easy to bid 2♦; it's more difficult to get the auction right after that.

Roland

what are you talking about/




reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......


in any case I have toldyou what i bid....


1h=


2d is easy...next.....

[Walddk]

mike777, on Sep 25 2008, 11:16 AM, said:

reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......

Which just goes to show that you haven't understood the reverse concept either.

"reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

I haven't seen a statement that stupid for decades. I give up.

Roland

[mike777]

Walddk, on Sep 25 2008, 04:22 AM, said:

mike777, on Sep 25 2008, 11:16 AM, said:

reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......

Which just goes to show that you haven't understood the reverse concept either.

"reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

I haven't seen a statement that stupid for decades. I give up.

Roland

i give up all reverses are not extra lol....


1c=2d
2h=is not extra......lol


1h=2d
2s=not extra without agreement....lol

I repeat reverse does not equal extra 100%......next
see bridge encyclopedia...reverse not extra 100%.......

[helene_t]

I jump shift is based either on a one-suiter or a a 5-card plus support for partner's suit. We don't have this. I suppose some could describe this hand via 2NT response, but a 2♦ response is a misdescription IMO.

Assuming we play Walsh this is very easy. Over partner's 1NT rebid I just bid 6NT.

[the hog]

"reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

Uh Mike....???? That comment is totally meaningless, sorry. It either promises extra strength, (and I VEHEMENTLY feel that it should), or it doesn't. However this is a matter you must have agreed with your partner beforehand, surely.

"1c=2d
2h=is not extra......lol"

Absolutely is with anyone I have ever played with or will ever play with, regardless of system!

[mike777]

The_Hog, on Sep 25 2008, 04:42 AM, said:

"reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

Uh Mike....???? That comment is totally meaningless, sorry. It either promises extra strength, (and I VEHEMENTLY feel that it should), or it doesn't. However this is a matter you must have agreed with your partner beforehand, surely.

"1c=2d
2h=is not extra......lol"

Absolutely is with anyone I have ever played with or will ever play with, regardless of system!

insane...


1c=2d (stj)
2h is extra=insane

how much extra does 2h show.....lots of extra...insane///////......


xx...AKxx...xx...AKxxx....typical minimum........
xxx...akxx...x...akxxx

[Walddk]

mike777, on Sep 25 2008, 11:44 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Sep 25 2008, 04:42 AM, said:

"reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

Uh Mike....???? That comment is totally meaningless, sorry. It either promises extra strength, (and I VEHEMENTLY feel that it should), or it doesn't. However this is a matter you must have agreed with your partner beforehand, surely.

"1c=2d
2h=is not extra......lol"

Absolutely is with anyone I have ever played with or will ever play with, regardless of system!

insane...


1c=2d (stj)
2h is extra=insane

Yes, you are the only sensible person around by the look of it. The rest of us are beyond therapeutical reach. Nonetheless we will try to survive.

Roland

[the hog]

mike777, on Sep 25 2008, 04:44 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Sep 25 2008, 04:42 AM, said:

"reverse do not promise strong or weak..they are reverse..lol.....reverse is not strong or weak...lol.....they are reverse......"

Uh Mike....???? That comment is totally meaningless, sorry. It either promises extra strength, (and I VEHEMENTLY feel that it should), or it doesn't. However this is a matter you must have agreed with your partner beforehand, surely.

"1c=2d
2h=is not extra......lol"

Absolutely is with anyone I have ever played with or will ever play with, regardless of system!

insane...


1c=2d (stj)
2h is extra=insane

how much extra does 2h show.....lots of extra...insane///////......


xx...AKxx...xx...AKxxx....typical minimum........
xxx...akxx...x...akxxx

Mike, pd opens 1H.
You have a 3253 16 or so count.
You bid 2D and pd bids 2S. Now what? 3C from yousay? 3NT from pd. Now....????
If opener has not shown extras, 4NT (Quant) from you may be above the trick limit of the hand.

Great, you play 4NT off 1 and everyone else in the world makes 9 tricks. personally I think that a reverse NOT showing extra values is "insane" as you put it. However, you are entitled to your opinion.

[P_Marlowe]

Can we just stop the discussion, if reverse in general
show add. strength or not?

Both styles have their merrits, although I play
that a reverse showes add. strength, I have
learned it that way, and well ...

......................................................................

In the current context this discussion is not really relevant,
since the reverse occurs after a SJS, you may treat it similar,
or you may not.
Of course if you require add. strength, you may be forced
to bid 3C instead of 2M, if you happen to hold a min. opener
with a 5-4 shape, which would kill add. space.
And because of this, I would say, that after a SJS a "reverse",
opener bids a suit higher ranking than the suit he opened, does
not promise add. strength.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I know this post is insane / stuid and showes, that I am on
suicide watch.
http://redwing.hutma...tm/diplomat.htm

[FrancesHinden]

I honestly don't think that anyone believes that

1C 2D (sjs)
2M

shows extra strength, that really is insane
(and it's not a reverse anyway)

[han]

Agree with Frances and mike777 on that issue.

[fred]

FrancesHinden, on Sep 25 2008, 01:35 PM, said:

I honestly don't think that anyone believes that

1C   2D (sjs)
2M

shows extra strength, that really is insane
(and it's not a reverse anyway)

I always thought that a new suit response to a jump shift meant nothing more than "I have a source of tricks in this suit". For example, 1C-2D-2H could be based on a 4423 12-count or a strong hand with a lot of shape - the only thing it really "promises" is a strong heart suit.

The theory is that when responder jump shifts he is not supposed to have the sort of hand where he needs to get a detailed description of his partner's hand. Instead he should have the sort of hand in which he is prepared to set trump with his rebid, temporarily relinquishing captaincy, and then let nature take its course.

When opener bids a new suit over the jump shift, he is not proposing that suit as trump - if responder wanted to consider playing in a contract with that suit as trump he should not have jump shifted in the first place.

Instead the new suit bid should be used to help responder decide how well the hands mesh. If opener bids a new suit and responder has a holding like Ax or Kxx in that suit, he should like his hand more. But if instead responder has a singleton or void in that suit, he should like his hand less.

IMO it is crazy for opener's 2H or 2S rebid in the auction in question to just say "I have 4 cards in this suit" regardless of whether or not you think the bid shows extra values. If responder cared about a 4-card major, he should not have bid 2D in the first place.

Mike777 - In the modern American style of bidding, 2D then 3C with Qxx of clubs is simply wrong. End of story. Some very experienced players have been trying to explain this to you, but it sounds to me that you are either not listening and/or you are just being stubborn.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[cherdano]

It might be worth pointing out that (in my understanding at least) there are two styles of playing strong jumpshifts. In the one that Fred seems to be advocating, responder knows which suit is trump, i.e. he has
(1) a self-sufficient suit, or
(2) good support (not Qxx!)
In the style used for example in BWS, responder could also have a balanced hand with a good suit, and extras for the GF - probably s.th. like 16-18 hcp.

Playing the latter style, one might be able to get away with a SJS on that hand. E.g. if partner bids 2M, we can bid 2N, and force to slam later. But e.g. over a 2N rebid we are stuck, 3♣ is misdescriptive and bidding NT either is an underbid (3N) or takes away a lot of space while we still don't know where we belong.

[jdonn]

I really don't mind either bid. I don't see how the 'problem' of what to do over 1♣ 2♦ 2NT is very different from the 'problem' of what to do over 1♣ 1♦ 1♠ 2♥ 2NT. Additionally, if you play 1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 2♠ as fourth suit then you are really taking up a lot of room. It's nice to be able to make one bid that clarifies that all your future non-game bids are forcing.

Maybe I'm influenced by the way I have always play strong jump shifts, which seems to be the common way in southern California. Opener is supposed to make an artificial bid in the next step (2♥) except when he has a very unusual hand, to let responder clarify his intentions. So I "know" I would get to bid 2NT next. Then if partner rebids 3♣ or 3♦ I'm well positioned to investigate, if he simply raises to 3NT I can bid (for example) 4♦ to keep the auction going, having already shown a balanced hand. Another possibility would be to raise 3NT to 5NT as a choice of slams, then follow with 6NT as an invitation to 7NT. I don't think we will reach every cold grand that way, but I think we will reach some cold ones and no bad ones.

In my normal methods 2♦ is artificial, and I certainly don't feel badly about bidding 1♦.

My reasoning certainly has nothing to do with anything Mike has said, at least that of it which I can understand.

[1eyedjack]

I thought that this was quite a difficult problem and I don't find any of the responses especially convincing. I would probably respond 1D but without much enthusiasm or confidence that the rebids which I shall subsequently extract from partner under duress will help me to choose between the anticipated options of 6N and 7N as final contract.

My experience of taking these hands slowly is that I start by making a forcing bid. Partner makes a rebid which doesn't really help me. I then make a game forcing bid, such as 4th suit. Partner shows me a guard in the 4th suit. Well whoopde-doo, there's a surprise. Finally I get across that I really have a slam try. By now I am at the 4 level, and partner has (probably with some reluctance by now) completed his hand pattern (which does not divert me from choosing between 6N and 7N). I have probably only by now promised about 18 points, maybe 17 at a stretch and I am now at the 4 level. Given my luck there is no suit agreed either expressly or by implication, so that by now 4N would not even be forcing. And there is certainly no prospect of the dreaded G-word applying after this start. So I carry on making forcing bids opposite an uncooperative partner who is desperately by this time trying to slam on the brakes at every opportunity.

I think that the hand cries out for a system of relays by responder. By the time that he has relayed to 6S he may have a respectable chance of spotting the ball.

The critics of a 2D response are probably bolting on standard continuations. I don't have all the answers, but I would not be surprised if there were potential for significant improvements to continuations to strong jump shifts which could erode the perceived disadvantages to that response.