[NickRW]

awm, on Sep 24 2008, 11:58 PM, said:

NickRW, on Sep 24 2008, 06:18 PM, said:

Playing IMPs, I would prefer 1N to show balance and strength, 1S to show unbalanced shape personally.  The disadvantage of missing a few spade fits would be a price worth paying I think.

Playing MP - well - I don't like 5 card majors/strong NT right from the outset - the possibility of missing 4/4 spade fits being among the reasons.

Nick

This is an interesting comment, because a weak notrump based system is likely to miss a lot more 4/4 spade fits than a strong notrump system. The most common way to miss a major fit is to open 1NT and have partner pass. Playing weak notrump, you will open 1NT much more often, and when you do open 1NT partner is a bit less likely to have the high cards to act.

There are perhaps compensating advantages to the weak notrump (and additional disadvantages besides missing major suit fits as well) but I would not say that the possibility of missing 4/4 spade fits is a reason to select weak notrump over strong!

Your comment is fair and I put the point I was trying to make poorly. You're right that playing weak NT puts you effectively in the same sort of position as someone playing 5cM with a strong NT who then elects to skip showing spades in favour of rebidding 1N with a weak NT type opener.

What I should have said is that electing to play 4cM and playing it in the more modern style of opening the higher ranking suit except 4/4 majors kicks some of the possibilities of losing a 4-4 major fits into the long grass. This would be so regardless of whether you play it with a strong or weak NT - though I wouldn't like to play it with a strong NT and also have 2/1 with less than at least invitational values (as in either Acol or SAYC style). This somewhat pre-emptive style of choosing what to open seems more than playable at MP - but I am dubious as to whether it would be much good for IMPs.

Nick

[mike777]

The_Hog, on Sep 24 2008, 10:02 PM, said:

1NT for me. I have discussed this sort of sequence with Autralian theorist and international, Ron Klinger, many times. His argument is that you treat a balanced hand like a balanced hand iow you bid 1NT on these hands. What you lose on the swings you more than gain on the roundabouts.

1) for B/I I got to believe this is the least of the issues of "why we lose" We lose for so many other basic issues.
2) I would be surprised that 1nt is really "significant winning bridge at wc level" compared to other wc issues.

[the hog]

mike777, on Sep 25 2008, 10:25 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Sep 24 2008, 10:02 PM, said:

1NT for me. I have discussed this sort of sequence with Australian theorist and international, Ron Klinger, many times. His argument is that you treat a balanced hand like a balanced hand iow you bid 1NT on these hands. What you lose on the swings you more than gain on the roundabouts.

1) for B/I I got to believe this is the least of the issues of "why we lose" We lose for so many other basic issues.
2) I would be surprised that 1nt is really "significant winning bridge at wc level" compared to other wc issues.

I didn't say its significant, Mike. I'd be very surprised if this were the case. I think it makes bidding far easier to know what hand type partner has.

Look at the hand that prompted this thread:
x xxxxx xx AKJxx
If you "know" that pd 5D and 4S, I strongly contend, despite the overwhelming comments from the sans cullotes, that your rebid should be 2D. 1NT is not poor, but 2D is better. There is very likely to be a heart hole in a NT contract. If Pd does happen to be 4254, then playing 2D in a 5-2 fit will not hurt either.

[MickyB]

I prefer rebidding 1NT. I like to know whether opener is balanced, and I prefer methods where unbalanced hands tend to show and balanced hands tend to listen.

It's important to have a checkback method that lets you find your 4-4 fit when responder has 4S5H weak.

[mike777]

"Look at the hand that prompted this thread:
x xxxxx xx AKJxx"




I grant I rebid 1nt after:


1d=1h
1s=1nt

but then I expect the opp to have more hcp than us very often on this auction.

opener is not 4=2=5=2 with 14+ hcp and if alot more passing.

in any event if not significant........in B/I.....I will try and improve on other auctions and play.

[the hog]

" opener is not 4=2=5=2 "
Yep, quite right. Posted too quickly.

[Mbodell]

MickyB, on Sep 24 2008, 09:19 PM, said:

I prefer rebidding 1NT. I like to know whether opener is balanced, and I prefer methods where unbalanced hands tend to show and balanced hands tend to listen.

It's important to have a checkback method that lets you find your 4-4 fit when responder has 4S5H weak.

I agree. In partnerships where I don't play some form of checkback/nmf I bid 1♠. But I much prefer the partnerships where I have 2-way nmf and can then bid 1nt with no real problem.

[skjaeran]

Mbodell, on Sep 25 2008, 11:25 PM, said:

MickyB, on Sep 24 2008, 09:19 PM, said:

I prefer rebidding 1NT. I like to know whether opener is balanced, and I prefer methods where unbalanced hands tend to show and balanced hands tend to listen.

It's important to have a checkback method that lets you find your 4-4 fit when responder has 4S5H weak.

I agree. In partnerships where I don't play some form of checkback/nmf I bid 1♠. But I much prefer the partnerships where I have 2-way nmf and can then bid 1nt with no real problem.

I'd say playing in 1NT vs a 4432 8-count is a real problem. It might not be that big a problem at IMPs (losing 4-5 IMPs when 1NT fail and 2♠ would make is a big problem to me, those 1-2 overtrick IMPs less of a problem), but at MP it's a MAJOR problem IMO.

[Codo]

I think that for B/Is it is MUCH easier to show the 4 spades.
If you rebid 1 NT you have too many ways to lose:

1. You miss a spade part score fit.
2. You don't have the tools to find a spade game fit.
3. If you have the tools, you need to remember them.

I have never seen any simulation or test which shows that surpressing the spades is winning or losing bridge in the long run. From my own experience I had seen no big difference. Both approaches have their obvious wins and losses.

So I really think that a quite simple up the line bidding is winning bridge for B/Is, because it is easier.

[helene_t]

Codo, on Sep 26 2008, 08:11 AM, said:

I think that for B/Is it is MUCH easier to show the 4 spades.

I don't understand this.

Maybe the beginners will be frustrated when they loose the spade fit (just like the rest of us will) but in terms of ease I think bypassing spades wins:

The rebid of 1NT shows a balanced 12-14 and 1♠ shows spades and diamonds. Just like
1♠-2♣
2♦

If you bid up the line, responder will need to use judgement with a weak hand without four diamonds and without a club guard. Whereas those who bypass don't have to use judgment, they just follow simple rules: Take a false preference if you can't bid anything else.

Also, if responder has a strong hand, he will most often have to go through the dreaded fsf (is that GF or not?) if you don't bypass. While after the 1NT rebid he can usually place the contract. OK, with 4-4 majors he ought to use NMF or such, but not playing that there is nothing wrong with
1♦-1♥
1NT-2♠
3♥-3NT
pass
if responder is 4-4 in the majors.

Maybe it depends on the basic philosophy you are teaching. I emphasize captainship. Some might strive towards symmetry between opener's and responder's bidding.

[Codo]

I think the beginners I know have much more fun and success in thinking about the bidding then in remembering.

If responder in your example bids 1 Heart/2 Spade, this sounds like a two suiter, not like a (semibalanced) hand with just 4/4 in the majors. Now they must remember to bid 3 Heart with 3 Hearts and 4 Spades is madatory and does not show or deny extra strength. They must remember that 3 Spades is no cuebid, no control but a look for a 4/4 fit which denies 5 HEarts.

Of curse this is no problem for you and me, but it is for most of the B/Is I know.

If the bidding starts with 1 Club 1 Heart 1 Spade and you look at a 8 HCP hand with 3433 or the like, they just bid 1 NT and don't care too much about stoppers yet. If they are stronger, they need to remember wheter 4sf is gf or not. But to me this seems to me the lesser evil.