[ArtK78]

Everyone is so hypersensitive.

There is a difference between a hesitation and a break-in-tempo. After a skip bid, one is required to hesitate ABOUT 10 seconds before acting. One is not supposed to take any actions that would reveal that the 10 second period is being used for thought about taking or not taking an action as opposed to merely letting time pass (for example, counting to 10 out loud would be highly inappropriate).

A break-in-tempo would occur if the person who is required to hesitate takes an abnormally long period of time before acting in the context of the auction and the requirement to hesitate about 10 seconds. This would be true whether or not a stop card was used and whether or not a verbal skip-bid warning was made.

As for the use of the stop card, I always use the stop card and leave it on the table for a period of time. To me, this relieves my LHO of any responsibility for determining how long to wait. I get upset when my LHO acts prematurely - before I remove the stop card from the table. I usually leave it out for about 5-6 seconds, so any action before I remove the stop card would be very quick. But it happens quite frequently.

If anyone was upset at my leaving the stop card on the table for 5-6 seconds I would think that was inappropriate.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Aug 29 2008, 02:21 PM, said:

If anyone was upset at my leaving the stop card on the table for 5-6 seconds I would think that was inappropriate.

So they are only hypersensitive if they don't agree with you?

[nige1]

ArtK78, on Aug 29 2008, 02:21 PM, said:

If anyone was upset at my leaving the stop card on the table for 5-6 seconds I would think that was inappropriate.

I wouldn't get upset but I'd prefer that Artk78 left the STOP-card out for about 10 seconds after making his jump-bid.

[jtfanclub]

My general philosophy is, after a skip bid, there's no such thing as a hesitation.

The 8-10 seconds is a *minimum* to hide if you have an obvious call. But if you take 20 seconds, or 5 minutes, so what?

What does it really tell you, if your opponent took longer to think about it? Would you think he had one hand if he made his decision in 10 seconds, another if he took 30, and another still if he took 60?

In the WBF, as far as I can tell, there is in tempo and out of tempo. After a skip bid, you're required to bid out of tempo. There is no definition for "more out of tempo".

[nige1]

TimG, on Aug 29 2008, 01:11 PM, said:

I never said I would always pause appropriately, I simply said that would be the simplest solution.  I like to think that I am good about pausing appropriately, but no one is perfect all the time.

Sorry TimG, (and JDonn). "Never" and "Always" are almost never appropriate

TimG, on Aug 29 2008, 01:11 PM, said:

How is it that the person using the stop card can always decide what is appropriate, but the next player cannot?

"Always"? No just "Usually". Explanation in a previous reply

[blackshoe]

jtfanclub, on Aug 29 2008, 04:12 PM, said:

In the WBF, as far as I can tell, there is in tempo and out of tempo. After a skip bid, you're required to bid out of tempo. There is no definition for "more out of tempo".

Everywhere there is "in tempo" and "out of tempo". What constitutes one or the other is not a fixed number of seconds, but depends on several factors - including a regulation which requires a pause for a certain amount of time is certain circumstances.

If my RHO makes a skip bid, I concern myself with two things: complying with the "skip bid regulation", and what my best action should be. I don't care what RHO does with the stop card — although if he tries to shove it up my nose I will ask the director to explain Law 74A2 to him.

[mycroft]

In England, there are arguments over the Stop card that go:

"I put the stop card out and made my bid. After I put it away, he thought for a while before calling."
"True. But he put the stop card away after 4 seconds, not 10".
"No, I didn't"
....

In the U.S., there are people who argue about the length of the hesitation - including one who literally stood on his chair screaming for the director about my hesitation (which I literally had no idea about. It took my partner saying 'he made a jump bid, didn't he?' for me to clue in to what was going on; that's how internalized my 'pause after skip bids' clock is) because, frankly, nobody (except me, and a very few others) pauses the full 10 seconds routinely. I've trained my partners, but they still are about 4. And yes, that means I know they have a problem well within their 10 allowed seconds, but it's still better than 90% of my opponents.

SSDD (apologies for the implied profanity) applies.

[NickRW]

IMO this regulation about skip bids is - well just weird.

1) It is just as common for someone to have a problem after an ordinary bid as a jump bid. So I question the appropriateness of the regulation in the first place.

2) In my experience people only pay lip service to the 10 second thing - the stop card comes out and is often whipped away again after what can barely be 2 seconds - quite often immediately.

Nobody seems to care where I play.

Nick

[CSGibson]

NickRW, on Aug 29 2008, 03:13 PM, said:

IMO this regulation about skip bids is - well just weird.

1) It is just as common for someone to have a problem after an ordinary bid as a jump bid.  So I question the appropriateness of the regulation in the first place.

Yes, but an experienced bridge player should be able to make a plan that anticipates low-level actions by opponents and partner to some degree. Adding that to the fact that jump bids, by their very nature, force you to try to describe your hand in the most efficient manner in order to take advantage of what little space you have left, and you can see why someone should be entitled to take more time over a skip bid than over a direct overcall. I appreciate the protection allotted to me and my partners.

RE: Jdonn's concern with stop cards: it sounds like you have been treated poorly. I haven't had opponents do anything more than lay the stop card on the table next to their bid, I can see how someone invading your space with the card would be annoying, and I would probably mention something to the person about the proper way to use that card if it really was bothersome.

And I know that would provoke some of you maniacs out there to use it wrongly just to try to put me on tilt. Jerks, you probably coffee-house and use hesitation blackwood, too. (I can't find the sarcasm font, does anyone know where it is?)

[JoAnneM]

Isn't it true that the timing should start after the bid, not when the stop card is put away? The stop card actually should be put away before the bid, in my opinion. Put out the stop card, put it away, then make your bid.

[blackshoe]

Precisely how to use the stop card is a matter of regulation - and different places have different regulations. For example, in the EBU one puts out the stop card, makes one's bid, leaves the stop card out for approximately ten seconds, and then puts it away. In the ACBL, one puts out the stop card, makes one's bid, and then picks up the stop card immediately. There may be other rules in other places.

NB: in the ACBL, use of the stop card is optional. Since it seems to make no difference to either players or directors whether it is used, or whether it is used properly, I've stopped bothering with it.

[skjaeran]

The regulation on HOW to use the stop card in Norway is exactly the same as in the EBU. Both as a player and TD I strongly prefer the way we do it than any other procedure I've seen or heard about.

Our regulation differ from the EBU in one respect; in competitive auctions we use the stop card before making any non-pass call from 3♣ and onward (if both opponents pass in one round of bidding, it isn't a competitive auction anymore).

Of course lots of players over here - as everywhere else - doesn't follow correct procedure. Too bad for them - they're in trouble in any UI case in auctions where a stop card has been/should have been used.

[JoAnneM]

What irks me the most is conversations like this - "Sorry partner I didn't notice your jump": "Oh, sorry partner, I should have used the Stop card".

[matmat]

JoAnneM, on Aug 30 2008, 07:41 PM, said:

What irks me the most is conversations like this - "Sorry partner I didn't notice your jump": "Oh, sorry partner, I should have used the Stop card".

[mycroft]

what's worse is (and it's second-hand evidence, but second hand from the person who had to rule on it, so I trust it) "Of course it was strong; if it were weak, I would have used the Stop Card!" immediately followed by "Director, Please" (let's pretend the opponents are polite)...

[JoAnneM]

Is it legal for a club to ban the use of stop cards? Can we just take them out of the bidding boxes? I am a director but too lazy to look this up. I am pretty sure we can waive some of these laws.

[skjaeran]

JoAnneM, on Sep 2 2008, 06:59 PM, said:

Is it legal for a club to ban the use of stop cards? Can we just take them out of the bidding boxes? I am a director but too lazy to look this up. I am pretty sure we can waive some of these laws.

That's not law, but regulation. I' guess a club in the ACBL could ban the use of stop cards.

[blackshoe]

A club can certainly ban stop cards. They could even have a regulation that said "LHO of a skip bidder is expected to pause 10 seconds before selecting a call, while giving at least the appearance of thinking about his upcoming action, regardless of the lack of a skip bid warning". Whether a club would actually enforce such a regulation is another question, of course.

[mycroft]

I would not want to play in a club that banned stop cards, because they are as much of a habit as breathing, and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to break the habit when I played there. Same goes, only more so, for Alerts, and I'm glad the "can ask to have no Alerts" regulation died a natural death (of course, I both play Precision, so Alert A Lot, and know my system, so don't use the Alerts to keep me on track, so for me there's no worries. I also know pairs who DO use the Alerts to keep on track, and I play Vic Mitchell's Nuttin' Defence against them :-)

As a TD, I would not want a club to have such a regulation, because when their players go to tournaments, they'll have to deal with it, and have whatever issues go with that unfamiliarity (which is the same reason I don't like "can look at own CC in club games", but less so as the problem is less).

As a member of the ACBL, I wish we would deal with the problem of why this is a question in the first place, which is because 99.9+% of players ignore it anyway, and we don't nail them when their habitual ignorance of skip bid regulations make it screamingly clear when they *do* have a problem over the 3D preempt.

[JoAnneM]

My club recently bought all new bidding card replacement sets from Baron Bridge Supply. As you know these are quite expensive. The Stop Card is smaller than any other card in the box. It lurks down there shorter than the Double card and is the same color. So, it slows down the game while players fumble for it, and you certainly cannot leave laying out on the table for when you might need it. It is just a big pain in the neck.

And, I agree about following all the regulations. We have never waived any laws or regulations. We even require the NT announcement and most clubs around here do not.