[blackshoe]

JoAnneM, on Sep 3 2008, 12:56 PM, said:

you certainly cannot leave laying out on the table for when you might need it.

Whyinhell not?

I suspect that the bidding cards you bought were designed for the "trio" style boxes, not the big orange "standard" (and cheapest, iirc) boxes. The trio boxes have a separate place for the stop and alert cards (there's another model that does too, but I forget its name).

[blackshoe]

I had a phone conversation with the "clubs" people in Memphis a couple of years ago. The "official" position regarding regulations seems to be that clubs can make whatever regulations they like, but they're supposed to publish them so that the players know what they are. Clubs around here don't do that, with the result that there are occasionally inconsistent rulings. The de facto position of Memphis regarding club regulations seems to be that so long as the sanction fees are paid on time, nobody cares what clubs do.

[JoAnneM]

The reason you can't leave them out is that it would be a stop card for every bid!

[mycroft]

If I'm guessing correctly, you got the "Bid Buddy" boxes, like I have (but my club does not), like these. If that is the case, there's a slot in the cover (behind the bid cards when the box is set up), which is actually very convenient for holding the "Stop" and "Alert" cards. I'm pretty certain it's there matching the notch in the bottom so that the pairs of boxes don't slide over each other in transport, but it is convenient.

However, when I do play Precision, I take out the Alert card the first time, and turn it over and put it back by my box, rather than in it; it's going to come out again (I Put It Back after the round; that's how Alert cards get lost). You could do that with the Stop Card as well, but plan on having a bunch of them go missing/double up/...

[blackshoe]

Those are the boxes I was thinking of.

Paragraph two of the ACBL Bidding Box regulation, regarding the stop card, says

Quote

Place the stop card so that LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced in the bidding box.

If you place the stop card face down next to your bidding box after using it, I hardly think an opponent (or anyone else) could claim you've used the stop card for every bid. Granted, it's a deviation from the correct procedure specified in the regulation, but I don't see it becoming a problem.

The ACBL Codification (see the web site) says

Quote

For sanctioned games at clubs, the club may elect to discourage it's [sic; the stop card] use and require no mandated pause.

Given that the LHO of a skp bidder routinely ignores the use (or non-use) of the stop card, and that TDs rarely, if ever, do anything about breaks in tempo after a skip bid, I do not see how the regulation's stated goal of protecting the rights of both sides is met. Therefore, I favor not using it at all.

[barmar]

mycroft, on Sep 3 2008, 12:40 PM, said:

I would not want to play in a club that banned stop cards, because they are as much of a habit as breathing, and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to break the habit when I played there.

If they removed the cards from the boxes, it seems like it would be even more impossible to continue the habit when you play there. Do you think you'd go into withdrawal, jonesing for a stop card? Or would you just find yourself unable to make jump bids?

[matmat]

barmar, on Sep 3 2008, 08:40 PM, said:

mycroft, on Sep 3 2008, 12:40 PM, said:

I would not want to play in a club that banned stop cards, because they are as much of a habit as breathing, and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to break the habit when I played there.

If they removed the cards from the boxes, it seems like it would be even more impossible to continue the habit when you play there. Do you think you'd go into withdrawal, jonesing for a stop card? Or would you just find yourself unable to make jump bids?

at that point you bring your own.

[joshs]

I personally hate the stop cards and refuse to use them. The main point is that there are many tempo sensitive auctions, and only some of them are associated with skip bids. And some auctions involving skip bids are not tempo sensitive:

e.g. 1N-3N, 2S-4N

On the other hand, 1H-P-2H-(3D)-? is very tempo sensitive, as is most competitive auctions and its in appropriate to ever bid too fast in those auctions. I think its rediculous to pull out the stop card on 1N-3N and not on the above competative auctions.

Almost all suprise bid auctions are somewhat tempo sensitive, although if you have the auction:
1S-P-3N(10-12, 4S, singleton somewhere)-P
4C(where is it?)-4D-?
You probably will have to think about what bids mean, so a tank does not really carry UI.

This is a complicated subject, which the binary use of a stop card doesn't really solve the key problems...

Thats my 2 cents.

[JoAnneM]

Can we go back to the original post? My understanding is that the stop card is used to require an opponent to bid "in tempo" after a jump bid. This is not a finite number of seconds. This is to mostly prevent quick passes.

I believe this is confirmed in a NABC appeals case I read in a Bulletin (I don't remember which one) where the 10 seconds was considered a hesitation that carried UI, and that 5 seconds would have been considered "in tempo".

Does anyone else recall this?

[skjaeran]

joshs, on Sep 4 2008, 07:58 PM, said:

I personally hate the stop cards and refuse to use them. The main point is that there are many tempo sensitive auctions, and only some of them are associated with skip bids. And some auctions involving skip bids are not tempo sensitive:

e.g. 1N-3N

1N-3N can easily be a tempo sensitive auction. As has been proven time after time. I've been there myself (or my partner rather), holding a hand with a strong major suit, and you have to decide whether to double (for partner to lead his shorter major) or to save.

Quote

On the other hand, 1H-P-2H-(3D)-? is very tempo sensitive, as is most competitive auctions and its in appropriate to ever bid too fast in those auctions.

Those auctions DO require use of the stop card in Norway, but in no other Regulating Authority, as far as I know.

[skjaeran]

JoAnneM, on Sep 4 2008, 08:40 PM, said:

Can we go back to the original post? My understanding is that the stop card is used to require an opponent to bid "in tempo" after a jump bid. This is not a finite number of seconds. This is to mostly prevent quick passes.

I believe this is confirmed in a NABC appeals case I read in a Bulletin (I don't remember which one) where the 10 seconds was considered a hesitation that carried UI, and that 5 seconds would have been considered "in tempo".

Does anyone else recall this?

Well, this depends upon where you play. In Norway the required pause IS 10 seconds. The stop bidder determines this and removes his stop card to let LHO make his call.

[blackshoe]

JoAnneM, on Sep 4 2008, 02:40 PM, said:

Can we go back to the original post? My understanding is that the stop card is used to require an opponent to bid "in tempo" after a jump bid. This is not a finite number of seconds. This is to mostly prevent quick passes.

I believe this is confirmed in a NABC appeals case I read in a Bulletin (I don't remember which one) where the 10 seconds was considered a hesitation that carried UI, and that 5 seconds would have been considered "in tempo".

Does anyone else recall this?

I don't recall it, and I don't know the exact skip bid regulation which was in force at the time, but as near as I can tell, the current regulation says

Quote

When RHO has announced a skip bid, the player following the skip bidder must wait for a suitable interval (about 10 seconds).

Given that, I don't see how a committee (or TD could rule that anything over 5 seconds is a BIT. If the regulators wanted the regulation to read "ten seconds in some situations, five in others", they should have written it that way - and specified the circumstances under which ten seconds would be too much.