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Partner's pass is non-forcing. What would you do? If you double or pass, what would you lead?
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Bid over 4[SP]?
#1
- Andy Bowles
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Posted 2008-August-18, 02:24
Partner's pass is non-forcing. What would you do? If you double or pass, what would you lead?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#3
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Posted 2008-August-18, 04:41
My agreement with partner is that double shows a constructive hand that believed 4♥ was a winner. Naturally partner will often pass.
If he does, I lead the ♥A too.
If he does, I lead the ♥A too.
_____________________________________
Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.
Best Regards Ole Berg
_____________________________________
We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
Gnasher
Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.
Best Regards Ole Berg
_____________________________________
We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
Gnasher
#4
- - - T98765432 AQT8
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Posted 2008-August-18, 09:32
Jlall, on Aug 18 2008, 03:28 AM, said:
I would double and lead the heart ace.
Me too.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#5
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Posted 2008-August-18, 10:12
I would definitely double but I think I want to lead the ♦A. Don't ask me why.
"It is not enough to be a good player. You must also play well." -- Tarrasch
#6
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Posted 2008-August-18, 12:01
Clear double IMO.
I'm leading the heart ace.
I'm leading the heart ace.
Kind regards,
Harald
Harald
#7 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-August-18, 14:40
xcurt, on Aug 18 2008, 11:12 AM, said:
I would definitely double but I think I want to lead the ♦A. Don't ask me why.
I think it is because the lead was posted as part of the problem, and since the heart ace is such an obvious lead it is unlikely to be right. If you had this hand at the table you would not get this strange "feeling" because you would not know it is a forum problem hand. This is a common phenomenon.
#8
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Posted 2008-August-18, 15:02
Jlall, on Aug 18 2008, 03:40 PM, said:
xcurt, on Aug 18 2008, 11:12 AM, said:
I would definitely double but I think I want to lead the ♦A. Don't ask me why.
I think it is because the lead was posted as part of the problem, and since the heart ace is such an obvious lead it is unlikely to be right. If you had this hand at the table you would not get this strange "feeling" because you would not know it is a forum problem hand. This is a common phenomenon.
I agree that the ♥A is the reflex lead and of course the ringing bell is always a possibility but I want to lead it because I think I can recover from the ♦A being wrong more often that I can recover from the ♥A being wrong.
The ♦A can lose like so:
# They ruff it and the tempo was important
# We set up their king for a pitch in the other hand AND we have a slow trick in that suit
# It blows a trick in the diamond suit. There are too many cases in the diamond suit to enumerate them all but holding 5 and not 4 makes a big difference since lacking intermediates odds are we don't have a third-round winner to protect as one of the other hands must hold a doubleton or shorter
The ♥A can lose like so:
# They ruff it and the tempo was important
# We set up their king for a pitch in the other hand AND we have a slow trick in that suit
# Partner is ruffing diamond(s) and cashing the ♥A attacks our entry to get a(nother) ruff
I think that the vig lies with leading the ♦A.
"It is not enough to be a good player. You must also play well." -- Tarrasch
#9
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Posted 2008-August-18, 15:05
If it was somehow forbidden for me to lead a heart, I'd lead the ♣J.
_____________________________________
Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.
Best Regards Ole Berg
_____________________________________
We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
Gnasher
Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.
Best Regards Ole Berg
_____________________________________
We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
Gnasher
#10
- Andy Bowles
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Posted 2008-August-18, 16:40
Jlall, on Aug 18 2008, 09:40 PM, said:
I think it is because the lead was posted as part of the problem, and since the heart ace is such an obvious lead it is unlikely to be right. If you had this hand at the table you would not get this strange "feeling" because you would not know it is a forum problem hand. This is a common phenomenon.
Has somebody masquerading as me been posting lots of leading questions lately? I asked what people would lead because I regard what to lead as part of the decision about what to bid, I didn't think either was clearcut, and I wanted to hear what people had to say on the subject. There was nothing about the actual deal that made an unusual lead necessary.
Anyway, not everyone thinks a heart is automatic: I led a trump, and that turned out to be neither better nor worse than a heart.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#11
- - - T98765432 AQT8
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Posted 2008-August-18, 17:14
xcurt, on Aug 18 2008, 04:02 PM, said:
I agree that the ♥A is the reflex lead and of course the ringing bell is always a possibility but I want to lead it because I think I can recover from the ♦A being wrong more often that I can recover from the ♥A being wrong.
Even if true, that sort of ignores the fact (well fact to me) that a diamond lead IS wrong waaaaaay more often than a heart lead is wrong.
On your list of 3 times each lead loses, where occurence 1 and 2 are the same for each lead, those two possibilities are extremely more likely on the diamond ace lead than on the heart ace lead.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#12
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Posted 2008-August-18, 17:45
I think double is a weak bid. Sure ive got 2 aces but ive already showned values. Its pointless to compete to 4H without values (you are red)
Doubling is just bidding the hand twice for no reasons. I also lead the ♥ A.
Doubling is just bidding the hand twice for no reasons. I also lead the ♥ A.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
#13
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Posted 2008-August-18, 19:03
jdonn, on Aug 18 2008, 06:14 PM, said:
xcurt, on Aug 18 2008, 04:02 PM, said:
I agree that the ♥A is the reflex lead and of course the ringing bell is always a possibility but I want to lead it because I think I can recover from the ♦A being wrong more often that I can recover from the ♥A being wrong.
Even if true, that sort of ignores the fact (well fact to me) that a diamond lead IS wrong waaaaaay more often than a heart lead is wrong.
On your list of 3 times each lead loses, where occurence 1 and 2 are the same for each lead, those two possibilities are extremely more likely on the diamond ace lead than on the heart ace lead.
Are you saying they're more likely to ruff off the ♦A than the ♥A?
Edit -- also if one of them is void in diamonds, we're almost certainly already headed for a bad score.
"It is not enough to be a good player. You must also play well." -- Tarrasch
#14
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Posted 2008-August-18, 19:56
Double, ♥A.
Double seems pretty clear to me. Partner has opened the bidding and we have 2 Aces. Also, LHO is a passed hand and RHO has preempted. Sure, they might make 4♠, but I think they are much more likely to go down. Bidding 5♥ doesn't seem sensible either.
I admit that leading the ♦A does have some strange attraction (perhaps because it can lead to an immediate set: ♦A, ♦ruff, ♥A, ♦ ruff), but I would never do this.
Anyway, no reason to assume partner has a singleton diamond - RHO likely has 7 spades, LHO 3 or 4, so partner only has 1 or 2 spades.
♥A is also an unsupported Ace, but not only has partner bid the suit, but RHO has preempted. If LHO has a singleton heart, then even if RHO has the ♥K leading the Ace is probably OK. Perhaps hearts 2-2 with RHO holding the King is the only case where leading the ♥A costs.
Double seems pretty clear to me. Partner has opened the bidding and we have 2 Aces. Also, LHO is a passed hand and RHO has preempted. Sure, they might make 4♠, but I think they are much more likely to go down. Bidding 5♥ doesn't seem sensible either.
I admit that leading the ♦A does have some strange attraction (perhaps because it can lead to an immediate set: ♦A, ♦ruff, ♥A, ♦ ruff), but I would never do this.
Anyway, no reason to assume partner has a singleton diamond - RHO likely has 7 spades, LHO 3 or 4, so partner only has 1 or 2 spades.
♥A is also an unsupported Ace, but not only has partner bid the suit, but RHO has preempted. If LHO has a singleton heart, then even if RHO has the ♥K leading the Ace is probably OK. Perhaps hearts 2-2 with RHO holding the King is the only case where leading the ♥A costs.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
#15
- Andy Bowles
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Posted 2008-August-20, 02:38
Scoring: IMP
I doubled and led a trump, thinking that the only way this was likely to make was if dummy had a shortage. Either a heart or a trump leads to two down - partner's trumps prevent their doing anything useful with the diamonds. xcurt's diamond lead wouldn't have been a great success.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#16
- Andy Bowles
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Posted 2008-August-20, 02:40
OleBerg, on Aug 18 2008, 11:41 AM, said:
My agreement with partner is that double shows a constructive hand that believed 4♥ was a winner. Naturally partner will often pass.
Would he bid 5♥ on the actual hand?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#17
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Posted 2008-August-20, 03:49
gnasher, on Aug 20 2008, 10:40 AM, said:
OleBerg, on Aug 18 2008, 11:41 AM, said:
My agreement with partner is that double shows a constructive hand that believed 4♥ was a winner. Naturally partner will often pass.
Would he bid 5♥ on the actual hand?
I don't think so. I wouldn't myself, but my partner has often shown better judgement than me, especially in high-level competitive auctions, so maybe he would
_____________________________________
Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.
Best Regards Ole Berg
_____________________________________
We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
Gnasher
Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.
Best Regards Ole Berg
_____________________________________
We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
Gnasher
#18 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-August-20, 03:58
Not a fan of this trump lead, it's easy to construct hands where we either need to lead a heart and switch to clubs before they have time to pitch clubs on the diamonds, or where we need to lead a heart to switch to diamonds for either a ruff/trump promotion (Kx, x, xx with pard), or (less likely) to cash 4 red suit tricks when their black suit tricks are solid, or (even less likely) to avoid picking off parnters Qxx of spades. I'm not really seeing the gains and it seems unnecessarily fancy.
#19 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-August-20, 04:00
xcurt, on Aug 18 2008, 08:03 PM, said:
jdonn, on Aug 18 2008, 06:14 PM, said:
xcurt, on Aug 18 2008, 04:02 PM, said:
I agree that the ♥A is the reflex lead and of course the ringing bell is always a possibility but I want to lead it because I think I can recover from the ♦A being wrong more often that I can recover from the ♥A being wrong.
Even if true, that sort of ignores the fact (well fact to me) that a diamond lead IS wrong waaaaaay more often than a heart lead is wrong.
On your list of 3 times each lead loses, where occurence 1 and 2 are the same for each lead, those two possibilities are extremely more likely on the diamond ace lead than on the heart ace lead.
Are you saying they're more likely to ruff off the ♦A than the ♥A?
Edit -- also if one of them is void in diamonds, we're almost certainly already headed for a bad score.
Umm no, he's saying it's way more likely that the bad things that can happen with both the DA/HA leads happen when you lead a diamond (like blowing an important tempo, or setting up their suit for pitch, blowing a trick). This should be obvious. Your "logic" is flawed not because of your incomplete list of the downsides of each lead, but because it does not account for the much higher likelihood that the downside occurs when you lead diamonds rather than hearts.
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pass 1♥ 3♠ 4♥
4♠ pass pass