Jlall, on Aug 11 2008, 02:45 PM, said:
1) Why does 2C lose hearts unless partner is a GF, and 2D lose hearts unless partner is a game invite? If partner bids 2N over 2C you can just bid 3H and find game.
If that's what 3
♥ means, you can find a heart fit opposite a 54xx invitation, but only if you're happy to be in game opposite a 5323 invitation.
Does 3
♥ mean that? If it does, you can't use it as an exploratory move on a 1354 shape, but maybe that's not such a big deal.
Quote
I presume you're going to tell me that you play 2H over 2D as inv+ and 2H over 2C as GF ...
I assumed these methods when I answered the question. Isn't it more or less standard to play FSF as game-forcing?
Quote
... so there are some hands where partner can bid 2H over 2D that will not bid 2N over 2C.
No, I wasn't going to tell you that. This conversation might be easier to follow if you found out what my opinions were before trying to refute them.
Quote
Do you really not agree that if partner passes our 2C bid we have much more likely than not found the right minor?
It will probably be right if he is 1=4 or more clubbier, and probably wrong if he is 2=4 or 1=3 (though in the latter case 2
♦ might not be much fun either). I did a quick and dirty simulation (code at the bottom of this message) with these assumptions, and I got:
2C better 14%
2D better 10%
Irrelevant 76%
So, yes, I agree that on hands where we're going to play in two of a minor, 2
♣ will gain more often than it loses.
Another problem with 2
♣ that I mentioned is that it will get you to 3
♣ (or 3NT, if you prefer) opposite an xx24 invitation. It can also, of course, create problems when partner has a better hand with club support, but you may get compensating gains by having 2
♦ promise six.
It seems to me that the 2
♣ bid creates more of a problem the weaker you are - if you're strong enough to accept responder's 2NT or 3
♣ invitation, it's not that much of a problem, but if you aren't it is.
source format/none
south is {2 KT32 KQ932 AJ2}
# Counters
set Clubs_Better 0
set Diamonds_Better 0
set Irrelevant 0
main {
[space]set c [clubs north]
[space]set d [diamonds north]
[space]set h [hearts north]
[space]set s [spades north]
[space]
[space]# North has a 1S response
[space]if {$s < 4 || $h > $s} {
[space] [space]reject
[space] [space]}
[space]
[space]# 6+ spades or 3+ diamonds or equal length or 2D + 0-3 clubs
[space]if {$s > 5 || $d > 2 || $d == $c || ($d == 2 && $c < 4)} {
[space] [space]incr Irrelevant
[space] [space]accept
[space] [space]}
[space] [space]
[space]# 0-1 diamonds and 4+ clubs
[space]if {$d < 2 && $c > 3} {
[space] [space]incr Clubs_Better
[space] [space]accept
[space] [space]}
[space]# 2 diamonds and 5+ clubs
[space]if {$d == 2 && $c > 4} {
[space] [space]incr Clubs_Better
[space] [space]accept
[space] [space]}
[space]# 2 diamonds and 4 clubs
[space]if {$d == 2 && $c == 4} {
[space] [space]incr Diamonds_Better
[space] [space]accept
[space] [space]}
[space]# 1 diamond and 3 clubs
[space]if {$d == 1 && $c == 3} {
[space] [space]incr Diamonds_Better
[space] [space]accept
[space] [space]}
[space]puts "Unexpected shape: [north shape]"
[space]accept
}
deal_finished {
[space]puts " 2C better [space] $Clubs_Better"
[space]puts " 2D better [space] $Diamonds_Better"
[space]puts " Irrelevant [space]$Irrelevant"
}