[kenrexford]

Dealer. IMP scoring. Basically Standard American approach. ♠xx ♥-- ♦AKQ10 ♣AQJ10xxx

Plan for starters?

If your idea is to open 1♣, partner has enough to respond. FWIW, his response will be 1♦ because he does not have a five-card major (you are playing Montreal Relay). If that offends you, -hidden for those who want no more clues-

Spoiler

he will respond 1♥.

If your idea is to open 2♣, partner will bid 2♦, GF (two Queens or a King or better) and does not have a positive response in any suit.

[rogerclee]

I open 1♣ and reverse into diamonds?

BTW I think Montreal Relay really does suck.

[han]

I would also reverse.

[kgr]

I open 3C followed with 3NT showing a GF with both minors.
3C-3D
3NT
... Want to see how it goes with my system (hope opps don't intervene and partner does not preempt 4D or 5D thinking I have a preempt in D)

[mikeh]

rogerclee, on Jul 11 2008, 10:52 AM, said:

I open 1♣ and reverse into diamonds?

BTW I think Montreal Relay really does suck.

agree with ALL of this

[Echognome]

mikeh, on Jul 11 2008, 09:38 AM, said:

rogerclee, on Jul 11 2008, 10:52 AM, said:

I open 1♣ and reverse into diamonds?

BTW I think Montreal Relay really does suck.

agree with ALL of this

I disagree with Roger's question mark. Otherwise, I agree.

[kenrexford]

Yeah, I don't like MR that much, either, but it does work well as a substitute for support doubles when playing with a newer player, especially in a field where everyone plays MR.

Anyway, when you bid 2♦ as your reverse (after 1♥ normal stuff), what do you expect partner to bid with a GF hand if he has:

1. xxx in clubs, xxxx in diamonds
2. Kxx in clubs, xxxx in diamonds

If he has five diamonds, 3♦ may seem obvious, but I'm not even sure of that; if he has three diamonds, 3♣ seems obvious. (All of this if he is planning to support a minor and does not have some sexy jump option available).

If partner would bid 3♣ with one of these holdings, how would you (if you would) re-introduce diamonds as legitmately 4-card? I mean, we all now know that a 2♦ reverse could be based on any wild-ass short suit imaginable.

[SoTired]

I differ from all... I treat most 7-4 as a one suited hand. Especially if the 7 is strong. So, for me, this is a 3-loser club hand which I will open 2C and rebid 3C over partner's 2D response.

[jtfanclub]

SoTired, on Jul 11 2008, 04:40 PM, said:

I differ from all... I treat most 7-4 as a one suited hand. Especially if the 7 is strong. So, for me, this is a 3-loser club hand which I will open 2C and rebid 3C over partner's 2D response.

Yah. Kind of shocked this is the exception, not the rule.

If you open 1♣ with insane monster powerhouses like this, seems like you ought to find another use for the 2♣ opening.

[rogerclee]

I think we need to gather everyone who opens 2♣ on any "3-loser" hand and launch them directly into the Sun.

Ok not really. But I don't understand why you guys think it is so easy to control this auction after the start 2♣, 3♣. Partner has no idea what values are useful, since you have given such a poor description of your hand. Slam bidding and finding the right strain are very difficult if you constantly open hands like this 2♣.

[jtfanclub]

rogerclee, on Jul 11 2008, 05:01 PM, said:

I think we need to gather everyone who opens 2♣ on any "3-loser" hand and launch them directly into the Sun.

Ok not really. But I don't understand why you guys think it is so easy to control this auction after the start 2♣, 3♣. Partner has no idea what values are useful, since you have given such a poor description of your hand. Slam bidding and finding the right strain are very difficult if you constantly open hands like this 2♣.

I'm sorry, I'm missing something. What's useful to you is spades, what's not useful to you is hearts. How is bidding clubs then diamonds going to tell your partner that you need spades and not hearts?

If you had AK -- Qxxx AQJTxxx, sure, bidding diamonds would tell partner something.

I'm not going to open 1♣ because I have 11 cards in the minors, no points in the majors, and it would take serious money to keep the opponents out of the auction. May as well show partner something now.

[SoTired]

rogerclee, on Jul 11 2008, 05:01 PM, said:

I think we need to gather everyone who opens 2♣ on any "3-loser" hand and launch them directly into the Sun.

Ok not really. But I don't understand why you guys think it is so easy to control this auction after the start 2♣, 3♣. Partner has no idea what values are useful, since you have given such a poor description of your hand. Slam bidding and finding the right strain are very difficult if you constantly open hands like this 2♣.

Really? Instead of insults and generic ridicule, where has 2C then 3C misdescribed this hand? Is it too weak? Not really, because as little as a few clubs from partner and this hand has good chance to make 5C.

Is it because the the hand does not have enough defense? Even there, it will likely take 4-5 tricks on defense. Is it because it lacks 20 HCP? Sorry if you are a slave to HCP.

I repeat - this hand is a 3-loser hand and has good chance to make 5C opposite very little from partner. If we open 1C and reverse to 2D, partner is not likely to realize that it only takes a few cards from partner to make slam.

And this hand is NOT a two-suiter. There is nothing more annoying and frustrating then playing in a 4-4 diam fit, getting a bad break in diam with the ♣K offside, running out of trump and having to pitch clubs while the opps run their hearts.

Maybe you should be thrown into the sun.

[han]

Roger, I agree that throwing them into the sun is absolutely uncalled for. Besides, these people make for excellent opponents so I would hate to see them vaporize.

[jtfanclub]

han, on Jul 11 2008, 06:38 PM, said:

Roger, I agree that throwing them into the sun is absolutely uncalled for. Besides, these people make for excellent opponents so I would hate to see them vaporize.

Actually, my favorite opponents are the ones, apparently like you and roger, who can't stand to bid a major after the opponents open 1 club.

Come on. Do a sim, make some sample hands, use your imagination. What do you think the odds are that you'll be able to open one club with this and rebid 2 diamonds?

[rogerclee]

jtfanclub, on Jul 11 2008, 04:56 PM, said:

han, on Jul 11 2008, 06:38 PM, said:

Roger, I agree that throwing them into the sun is absolutely uncalled for. Besides, these people make for excellent opponents so I would hate to see them vaporize.

Actually, my favorite opponents are the ones, apparently like you and roger, who can't stand to bid a major after the opponents open 1 club.

Come on. Do a sim, make some sample hands, use your imagination. What do you think the odds are that you'll be able to open one club with this and rebid 2 diamonds?

I think that I will be able to rebid 2♦ whenever partner has a good hand?!?!?! With hearts?!?!?! Who will be VERY CONFUSED why slam has NO PLAY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Serious question: Would you open 2♣ on ♠x ♥x ♦x ♣AKQxxxxxxx too?

For the record, it would upset me if you were actually vaporized by the sun.

[skjaeran]

SoTired, on Jul 12 2008, 12:58 AM, said:

Is it because the the hand does not have enough defense? Even there, it will likely take 4-5 tricks on defense. Is it because it lacks 20 HCP? Sorry if you are a slave to HCP.

So with 2047 you expect the diamonds to be 3-3-3 with the other three players?
I'd be surprised if this hand would score much more than 2.5 tricks on defence on average.

[jtfanclub]

rogerclee, on Jul 11 2008, 07:04 PM, said:

I think that I will be able to rebid 2♦ whenever partner has a good hand?!?!?! With hearts?!?!?! Who will be VERY CONFUSED why slam has NO PLAY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Serious question: Would you open 2♣ on ♠x ♥x ♦x ♣AKQxxxxxxx too?

For the record, it would upset me if you were actually vaporized by the sun.

Slam has no play? So partner has a hand like

xxx AKxxx xxx xx?

They have an 8 card fit in both majors and 13 points in them. You're expecting 1♣ P 1♥ P?

You have two cards in the majors. The realistic possibilities are:

1. Your side has slam, and the opps have so few points that they can't compete.
2. Your partner has at least 10 cards in the majors, and is going to insist on the majors...forever.
3. The opponents have at least 15 cards in the majors combined and enough points to bid, so they'll be bidding.

If I had x x x AKQxxxxxxx, I wouldn't open 1♣. I'd open asking for aces, which in my case is 3NT. How is opening this 1♣ going to help? In fact, let's assume for the moment that one of the opponents tries to open out of turn, and manages to bar his partner from bidding, so by some miracle you have a free auction.

So you'd open 1 club, and when your partner responds 1 spade, you bid....what?

And in reality, you're going to get some sort of 1♣ X 1♠ 4♥ auction. There's a nice auction to walk into. Think you'll get to slam when it's right? I'd open 5 clubs before I'd open 1 club. Heck, I'd open 7 clubs before I'd open 1 club.

Opening one of a minor with a 7+ card minor suit and shortness in the majors sucks. It doesn't give your partner enough information for him to be useful in what is almost always a competitive. It's not that I count my losers and say "hmm, three losers, I-am-a-robot. I-must-open-two-clubs". This is a one suited powerhouse. At least in the SAYC and 2/1, there isn't even a rebid that shows a one suited powerhouse. Most people around here play that 1♣ P 1♥ P 4NT is keycard for hearts, and I'm betting that's the case on the rest of this planet as well.

P.S. LOL at Justin for suggesting that if partner has 4 diamonds and 3 clubs he'll support diamonds. I have 11 cards in the minors. If partner has 7 cards in the minors, that gives the opponents 18 cards in the majors. 18. If the bidding goes 1♣ P 1M P 2♦, I don't think responder's going to be showing preference with 4-3 in the minors. Maybe 2-1 in the minors.

[rogerclee]

So your argument is that you can't stand it if your opponents bid, so you need to preempt them with a 2♣ opener?

Ok.

I disagree that this hand is "good enough" to open 2♣ because only very specific cards in partner's hand are useful to me.

[fred]

I like the following principle:

You should not open 2C if it is the case that, should the opponents bid a slam, you will feel you need to "sacrifice" in order to take out insurance against them making it.

I am not necessarily suggesting that this is the case with the hand in question. Obviously it is the case with the 10-solid clubs and 3 singletons hand.

It would really not occur to me to open 2C on this 7-4 hand (except perhaps as a "tactical psych"). I am not saying I think it is "wrong" to open 2C. My opinion on this matter is no doubt largely a function of the style I have been playing my whole bridge life (heavily influenced by Eric Kokish who might be considered the high priest of ultra-strong 2C openings).

In recent years I have started opening 2C a lot more often that I used to (I think this is a general trend in USA expert circles), but for now at least it remains the case that opening 2C on hands like this one is really not for me.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com