BBO Discussion Forums: Development on the 2NT rebid in T-Walsh - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Development on the 2NT rebid in T-Walsh

#1 User is offline   joker_gib 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,384
  • Joined: 2004-February-16
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 2008-July-02, 06:14

Hi all!

For those who are playing transfer walsh, what are your developments on the 2NT rebid ?

1 = all balanced hands excepted those with 5

1 1 = 4 cards +
2NT (18-19) ?

1 1= 4 cards +
2NT (18-19) ?

Thanks in advance !
Alain
0

#2 User is offline   kenrexford 

  • Brain Farts and Actual Farts Increasing with Age
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,586
  • Joined: 2005-September-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lima, Allen County, North-West-Central Ohio, USA
  • Interests:www.limadbc.blogspot.com editor/contributor

Posted 2008-July-02, 06:18

Wildly curious...

Does T-Walsh make this sequence functionally different from the standard Walsh 2NT rebid?
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
0

#3 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,068
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 2008-July-02, 06:24

If opener would have accepted the transfer with 3-card support, you don't need a checkback. So you could play 3 and 3 both as to play.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
0

#4 User is offline   sheepman 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 46
  • Joined: 2006-March-27
  • Location:oop north, England

Posted 2008-July-02, 06:28

1-1-?

1 = (1)2-3, minimum
1 = natural, unbalanced
1N = 17-19 bal, (1)2-3
2 = Natural
2 = Natural, 16+, F1
2 = min bal w/4, min unbal w/3
2N = 16+, 6/3 OR 5/4, F1
3 = 13-15, unbal w/4, suggests concentrated suits + singelton
0

#5 User is offline   dicklont 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 750
  • Joined: 2007-October-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands
  • Interests:Bridge, music, sports

Posted 2008-July-02, 06:34

I don't play T-walsh but for my prefered method I believe it makes no difference.

2NT rebid shows 18/19 with a balanced hand and it could have a 4-card fit in partners suit. Therefore 2NT is forcing.

With a subminimal hand responder will rebid his suit, the T-walsh pair would re-transfer off course. Only in this sequence you can finish below game level.

With a minimum or stronger hand responder bids 3 (checkback), shows another suit (natural) or bids 3/4/6 NT.
--
Finding your own mistakes is more productive than looking for partner's. It improves your game and is good for your soul. (Nige1)
0

#6 User is offline   joker_gib 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,384
  • Joined: 2004-February-16
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 2008-July-02, 06:49

helene_t, on Jul 2 2008, 01:24 PM, said:

If opener would have accepted the transfer with 3-card support, you don't need a checkback. So you could play 3 and 3 both as to play.

It's not the case, opener gives strength first (18-19) and can still have 3 cards support....

I suppose that the most effective way is to play a structure with transfers which allows you to play 3M. As I don't want to reinvent the wheel, I'm asking the wonderful people of thsi wonderful forum ..... :P
Alain
0

#7 User is offline   joker_gib 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,384
  • Joined: 2004-February-16
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 2008-July-02, 06:52

kenrexford, on Jul 2 2008, 01:18 PM, said:

Wildly curious...

Does T-Walsh make this sequence functionally different from the standard Walsh 2NT rebid?

Not really but pay attention that a hands with longer than are also opened 1 ! (3-4)-4-2, (2-4)-4-3
Alain
0

#8 User is offline   pclayton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,151
  • Joined: 2003-June-11
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 2008-July-02, 08:31

After 1 - 1, Matt and I used to play 2N as a strong heart raise, but we shifted the raise to 2 to make it parallel with 1 - 1 - 2N.

1 - 1 - 2N is now a spade mini-splinter.

This works well.
"Phil" on BBO
0

#9 User is offline   pclayton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,151
  • Joined: 2003-June-11
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 2008-July-02, 08:36

kenrexford, on Jul 2 2008, 04:18 AM, said:

Wildly curious...

Does T-Walsh make this sequence functionally different from the standard Walsh 2NT rebid?

Why yes, yes it does!

There are a few varieties, but a popular one is 1 - 1 (hearts) - 1 simply shows a weak NT type hand (or many minimums).

1 - 1 - 1N show the 17+ - 19 balanced.

Perhaps the biggest advantage to this method is that you seldom get overboard when responding with very weak hands to 1.

Edited: Do any top T-Walsh pairs really play a 2N rebid as 18-19? Even if you play that 1-1-1 shows 3 like the Italians do, they have either a 2 or 2 opener to show the 18-19 point hands.
"Phil" on BBO
0

#10 User is offline   BillHiggin 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 499
  • Joined: 2007-February-03

Posted 2008-July-02, 08:44

I have seen two distinct styles of T-Walsh (and see replies here possibly representing each)

Style 1 (seems common in Northern Europe):
Simple acceptance of transfer shows 3 card support.

Style 2 :
Simple acceptance shows minimum usually balanced hand (may be similar strength in a 4-4-4-1 or 5-4-3-1 hand with shortness in responders suit).

Style 2 would normally rebid 1N to show 17-19 HCP balanced whereas Style 1 would need 1N to show the minimum balanced hand with less than 3 card support.

Since the OP referenced a 2N rebid as showing 18-19, it appears (to me) that Style 1 must be intended.
You must know the rules well - so that you may break them wisely!
0

#11 User is offline   han 

  • Under bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,797
  • Joined: 2004-July-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Posted 2008-July-02, 12:52

We rebid 1NT instead of 2NT with the strong balanced hands and use 2NT for other purposes. The downside is that we don't promise 3-card support when we complete the transfer.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
0

#12 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,836
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2008-July-02, 14:45

han, on Jul 2 2008, 01:52 PM, said:

We rebid 1NT instead of 2NT with the strong balanced hands and use 2NT for other purposes. The downside is that we don't promise 3-card support when we complete the transfer.

That's my preference, and while I have had limited experience playing T-Walsh, I have yet to see a downside.

We use 2N as the BWS nightmare hand: 1 1 2N shows typically a 6331 or a 6322 with 6 clubs and 3s and gf values. It hasn't come up yet, so I can't tell you how well it works in practice :(

But having the 1N rebid show 17-19 (when played with a 14-16 1NT) or 18-19 has worked very well, especially since, as is very common these days, we strain to respond to 1.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#13 User is offline   kgr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,423
  • Joined: 2003-April-11

Posted 2008-July-02, 16:50

I accept transfer with 3 card support.
2NT is 18-19 and can have 3-card support.
After 2NT we play transfers.
0

#14 User is offline   dbsboy 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 94
  • Joined: 2008-April-05

Posted 2008-July-02, 22:12

Playing 3-card acceptance transfer was what I originally did.

But I wanted 2N as a special convention so I played 2D = Genuine Reverse or 18-19 Balanced.

And 2N=FG with Clubs (may have support then) or a Jump to 3C without 3 Card Trump Support and 3C=a Jump to 3C with 3 card Trump Support, can signoff in 3M

Now I think 1M as minimum anything looks better
IF 1N=17-19 and even a 3-3-5-2 shape....so 1D can promise an unbalanced hand
and there is a lot of room to investigate onwards

And I could continue using my 2N/3C scheme. :P
0

#15 User is offline   jvage 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 207
  • Joined: 2006-August-31

Posted 2008-July-03, 04:04

pclayton, on Jul 2 2008, 09:36 AM, said:

Edited: Do any top T-Walsh pairs really play a 2N rebid as 18-19? Even if you play that 1-1-1 shows 3 like the Italians do, they have either a 2 or 2 opener to show the 18-19 point hands.

The Norwegian pair Brogeland-Lindqvist (who won the butler in addition to the European championship in Pau) does, as do the players on Norways Junior and Womens team (the 2 other open pairs don't play T-Walsh). As mentioned by other posters the T-Walsh methods popular in Norway are different from what most posters here use in that a simple acceptance shows 3(4). It seems there is no standard solution to 18-19 hands with 3 cards support, some just accepts the transfer while others (including B-L) rebids 2NT. After the natural 2NT repeated transfers is the most popular method, also used by B-L (I know their system fairly well, since I have played the same methods partnering Lindqvist).

John
0

#16 User is offline   joker_gib 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,384
  • Joined: 2004-February-16
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 2008-July-03, 05:05

jvage, on Jul 3 2008, 11:04 AM, said:

After the natural 2NT repeated transfers is the most popular method, also used by B-L (I know their system fairly well, since I have played the same methods partnering Lindqvist).

Hi John!

Repeated transfers are what I'm interested in !

Do you always re-transfer with 5 cards in the major ? If you show a second suit, do you have 5M ?

Could you post the detailed developments ?
Alain
0

#17 User is offline   jvage 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 207
  • Joined: 2006-August-31

Posted 2008-July-03, 05:46

This is copied and pasted directly from B-L's supplementary sheets from Pau (I just fixed the suit-symbols), it should answer most of your questions. As mentioned earlier they rebid 2NT with (17)18-19 even with 3 card support. As you see they use transfers after the 2NT rebid even after other openings than 1 (no original transfer).

Note 2: Transfers after 2NT rebid
1m – 1y
2NT
• Transfers on 3-level and to both majors on 4-level. No Splinter!
o Transfers to 3, always accept
o Transfers to responders suit accept with 2card
o 1 - 1 - 2NT - 3: Opener makes a preference between and , 3may be 3 card
o 1 - 1 - 2NT - 3: Both minors, in search for the best game, OR may be stronger
o Jump to 4y for play 4 in that M, while 3y followed by 4 in that M is slamish (1 - 1 - 4 and 1 - 1 - 2NT - 4 is to play with both Majors)
o Jump to 4 is Natural slamish

1 – 1
2NT
• Transfers on 3-level. Minor on 4-level is Splinter with as trump!
o Transfers to 3, always accept
o Transfers to responders suit accept with 2card
o Jump to 4 and 4 to play, while 3/, followed by 4/is slamish

John
0

#18 User is offline   jvage 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 207
  • Joined: 2006-August-31

Posted 2008-July-03, 06:18

joker_gib, on Jul 3 2008, 06:05 AM, said:

Do you always re-transfer with 5 cards in the major ? If you show a second suit, do you have 5M ?

Since this is not explicit in the notes I can try to answer this myself.

Yes, normally.

No, in most sequences you will need to retransfer/rebid the major to show 5. For example after 1 - 1, 2NT:
3 - 3 - 3 shows 45(+) (system geeks will want to revert the 3/NT rebids)
3 - 3 - 3NT shows 44

I have not discussed with neither Espen L. nor any other partner how minor-suit rebids work, so I am honestly not sure wether say 1 - 1, 2NT - 3, 3 (forced) - 3NT could be made with only 44 in / (we always open 1 with 44 in the minors) or if it promise 5+ diamonds (I would guess it does). As in regular Walsh, with less than a gameforce responder would normally start by showing 4 spades before a longer minor, but facing a well-fitting 18-19 slam may still be in the picture.

John
0

#19 User is offline   fromageGB 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,679
  • Joined: 2008-April-06

Posted 2008-July-03, 10:58

I play a simple 1 1 1 is exactly 3 cards in hearts, and forcing, unlimited. Additional strength is shown later. So 1 1 2NT is 17-18 with less than 3 hearts. In response to this, John's method above is better than mine, but yes, a retransfer is possible.
0

#20 User is offline   fromageGB 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,679
  • Joined: 2008-April-06

Posted 2008-July-04, 08:19

One of the good things about this discussion board is how it gets you to talk situations over with your partner that you have just not considered together.
As a result we have now decided that after 1 1 (showing hearts) 2NT, all bids are transfers so that :
3 3 3NT is slam invitational with 5 diamonds
3 shows 6 hearts, and
3 shows 4+ spades.  Responder has not denied holding 5 spades, as our treatment with a less than invitational hand with 5/5 in the majors is to initially show the hearts, so opener treats this in a Walsh-like fashion.  He bids 3 with a 3 card suit, bids 3NT with 2, and 4 with 4. Over 3 responder can convert to 3NT or 4 accordingly.
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users