[kfay]

Scoring: IMP

1♦-P-1♥-1♠
3♥-P-4♥-All Pass

---

Dummy went down to a 'nice hand partner!'

Who's to blame? 3♥ or "NHP!"?

[karlson]

You should probably mention that it was weak NT context. Probably doesn't matter much on this sequence, but people can get picky.

[mike777]

kfay, on Jul 1 2008, 05:09 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♦-P-1♥-1♠
3♥-P-4♥-All Pass

---

Dummy went down to a 'nice hand partner!'

Who's to blame? 3♥ or "NHP!"?

looks like a 4h bid not a 3h rebid to me.
I would rebid 4c over 3h.

[655321]

mike777, on Jul 1 2008, 05:29 PM, said:

looks like a 4h bid not a 3h rebid to me.
I would rebid 4c over 3h.

Well, OK. I was wondering why this hand was posted, because I did not see how North could get any blame at all!

I will concede that a 4♥ bid by North is not completely crazy, but I would just make the normal 3♥ bid too. Anyway, the ♦Q is extra - 6♥ is very good even if the ♦Q is replaced by the ♦2.

[pclayton]

Both underbid a little - especially the 8 count. I think South can squeeze out a 3♠ call.

I'm not going to bring up LTC, but it does work wonders here. 6 opposite a 6.

[Sambolino]

i know how to solve this easily playing (relay) precision. i don't see a way to even smell the slam playing natural sys

[kenrexford]

pclayton, on Jul 1 2008, 07:04 PM, said:

Both underbid a little - especially the 8 count. I think South can squeeze out a 3♠ call.

I'm not going to bring up LTC, but it does work wonders here. 6 opposite a 6.

You don't need the 24-(my losers + your losers) silliness to evaluate this problem.

South had a six-loser hand. For slam to be one, he needs Opener to have some relatively weak combination of values.

South is missing the spade Ace, heart Ace, diamond A-K, and club A-Q-J for the grand. That's 22 HCP's. But, removing the spade or heart Ace, the latter because of the known 10-fit, yields an easy slam. That's only 18 HCP, and easily imaginable.

The club Jack could be gone altogether (either AQx or AQxx with the suit splitting or a marked finesse against the Jack using the 10, or even some deep squeeze), reducing the needed contribution to 17 HCP's.

If Opener has a doubleton in clubs, the Queen could be dropped from the package (reducing the needed contribution to 15), or even the Ace replaced by the Queen if Opener has the majors Aces and the diamond A-K.

So, it seems to take very little for a slam to make from South's perspective.

A good continuation would be 3♠, as you mentioned, with a serious 3NT by Opener.

Note that the diamond Queen is fluff.

[kenrexford]

Sambolino, on Jul 1 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

i know how to solve this easily playing (relay) precision. i don't see a way to even smell the slam playing natural sys

Um, if you cannot smell this slam using a natural approach, when it seems to be screaming obvious for the reasons that I just articulated (and easy to get to), then perhaps you should re-consider playing relay precision until you learn how to analyze hands. RP seems to be a crutch and not an asset.

[the hog]

3H is fine. Opposite 3H Sth really shopuld bid 3S. You don't need to play relay to find slams like this.

[ArtK78]

If I were playing a strong NT, I might have stretched to bid 4♥ on the North hand, but it is a stretch.

Playing a weak NT, this is clearly a 3♥ bid, since a 2♥ bid would show either a normal opening hand with distribution or a strong NT with heart support.

South is the only one who can visualize that there might be a slam here. I concede that a slam try would be aggressive, but not out of the question.

[ArcLight]

Jlall, on Jul 1 2008, 09:26 PM, said:

3H is perfectly normal and 4H is a terrible bid. South is closer to 6H than 4H lol.

Just,
Why is 4♥ terrible?
It seems like a tiny over bid, and the trumps are poor.

Is it because pard may go higher, and be disappointed with the trump quality and lack of a long suit (AKQ can never be more than 3 tricks)

[kenrexford]

ArcLight, on Jul 1 2008, 09:59 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jul 1 2008, 09:26 PM, said:

3H is perfectly normal and 4H is a terrible bid. South is closer to 6H than 4H lol.

Just,
Why is 4♥ terrible?
It seems like a tiny over bid, and the trumps are poor.

Is it because pard may go higher, and be disappointed with the trump quality and lack of a long suit (AKQ can never be more than 3 tricks)

My thoughts are along those lines. 4♥ by Opener has some merit, in that the prime values are usually undervalued. Bumping up the hand to a balanced 19-count is not unreasonable.

However, this is still only five honor covers plus a slow shortness value. And, the hearts are terrible. Plus, Responder will respond with very little as far as strength these days, so you do have to be cautious.

In the end, 3♥ seems definitional, and there is no real compelling reason to violate the definition. 18 is 18.

That said, if Responder bids 3♠, this surely is a serious hand.

[Codo]

ArcLight, on Jul 2 2008, 11:59 AM, said:

Jlall, on Jul 1 2008, 09:26 PM, said:

3H is perfectly normal and 4H is a terrible bid. South is closer to 6H than 4H lol.

Just,
Why is 4♥ terrible?
It seems like a tiny over bid, and the trumps are poor.

Is it because pard may go higher, and be disappointed with the trump quality and lack of a long suit (AKQ can never be more than 3 tricks)

1. I have a know 10 card fit.
2. I have a singelton in their suit.
3. I have a reasonable side suit
4. I can envison more hands where a slam is laydown then hands where we fail in 5 Heart.

4 Heart is a big underbid.

[Sambolino]

kenrexford, on Jul 1 2008, 07:34 PM, said:

Sambolino, on Jul 1 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

i know how to solve this easily playing (relay) precision. i don't see a way to even smell the slam playing natural sys

Um, if you cannot smell this slam using a natural approach, when it seems to be screaming obvious for the reasons that I just articulated (and easy to get to), then perhaps you should re-consider playing relay precision until you learn how to analyze hands. RP seems to be a crutch and not an asset.

i couldn't smell slam but i can smell impudence

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Assuming SAYC or something similar:

3H is inconsistent, either you sell the hand as 15-17, than
open 1NT, or you sell the hand as 18/19 than rebid 4H.
As it is 1D followed by 3H is, ...

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: The assumption was wrong.

[effervesce]

100% South. After 3♥ by north, south has an automatic 4♣ bid.

[kenrexford]

effervesce, on Jul 2 2008, 07:53 AM, said:

100% South. After 3♥ by north, south has an automatic 4♣ bid.

Damn natural players! LOL

[FrancesHinden]

As I have said once already today, 3H in this auction shows a good hand. You don't raise partner's 1H response to game just because you have a non-minimum opening bid.

In a weak NT context, raising a 1H response to 2H shows either an unbalanced minimum or a strong NT (which usually has about the same playing strength). You have already upgraded the hand as better than a strong NT by bidding 3H. I agree with this, by the way, but it's still short of a 4H bid.

Raising a 1H response to 3H shows either an unbalanced hand with strong NT values or 18-19 balanced. Raising a 1H response to 4H pretty match promises 2=4=2=5 18+ (no splinter).

[nige1]

Sambolino, on Jul 2 2008, 04:52 AM, said:

i couldn't smell slam but i can smell impudence

We do tend to be a bit scathing about views that don't coincide with our own.
The occasional smiley might soften such invective