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Development on the 2NT rebid in T-Walsh

#1 User is offline   joker_gib 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 06:14

Hi all!

For those who are playing transfer walsh, what are your developments on the 2NT rebid ?

1 = all balanced hands excepted those with 5

1 1 = 4 cards +
2NT (18-19) ?

1 1= 4 cards +
2NT (18-19) ?

Thanks in advance !
Alain
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#2 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 06:18

Wildly curious...

Does T-Walsh make this sequence functionally different from the standard Walsh 2NT rebid?
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#3 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 06:24

If opener would have accepted the transfer with 3-card support, you don't need a checkback. So you could play 3 and 3 both as to play.
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#4 User is offline   sheepman 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 06:28

1-1-?

1 = (1)2-3, minimum
1 = natural, unbalanced
1N = 17-19 bal, (1)2-3
2 = Natural
2 = Natural, 16+, F1
2 = min bal w/4, min unbal w/3
2N = 16+, 6/3 OR 5/4, F1
3 = 13-15, unbal w/4, suggests concentrated suits + singelton
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#5 User is offline   dicklont 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 06:34

I don't play T-walsh but for my prefered method I believe it makes no difference.

2NT rebid shows 18/19 with a balanced hand and it could have a 4-card fit in partners suit. Therefore 2NT is forcing.

With a subminimal hand responder will rebid his suit, the T-walsh pair would re-transfer off course. Only in this sequence you can finish below game level.

With a minimum or stronger hand responder bids 3 (checkback), shows another suit (natural) or bids 3/4/6 NT.
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#6 User is offline   joker_gib 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 06:49

helene_t, on Jul 2 2008, 01:24 PM, said:

If opener would have accepted the transfer with 3-card support, you don't need a checkback. So you could play 3 and 3 both as to play.

It's not the case, opener gives strength first (18-19) and can still have 3 cards support....

I suppose that the most effective way is to play a structure with transfers which allows you to play 3M. As I don't want to reinvent the wheel, I'm asking the wonderful people of thsi wonderful forum ..... :P
Alain
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#7 User is offline   joker_gib 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 06:52

kenrexford, on Jul 2 2008, 01:18 PM, said:

Wildly curious...

Does T-Walsh make this sequence functionally different from the standard Walsh 2NT rebid?

Not really but pay attention that a hands with longer than are also opened 1 ! (3-4)-4-2, (2-4)-4-3
Alain
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#8 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 08:31

After 1 - 1, Matt and I used to play 2N as a strong heart raise, but we shifted the raise to 2 to make it parallel with 1 - 1 - 2N.

1 - 1 - 2N is now a spade mini-splinter.

This works well.
"Phil" on BBO
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#9 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 08:36

kenrexford, on Jul 2 2008, 04:18 AM, said:

Wildly curious...

Does T-Walsh make this sequence functionally different from the standard Walsh 2NT rebid?

Why yes, yes it does!

There are a few varieties, but a popular one is 1 - 1 (hearts) - 1 simply shows a weak NT type hand (or many minimums).

1 - 1 - 1N show the 17+ - 19 balanced.

Perhaps the biggest advantage to this method is that you seldom get overboard when responding with very weak hands to 1.

Edited: Do any top T-Walsh pairs really play a 2N rebid as 18-19? Even if you play that 1-1-1 shows 3 like the Italians do, they have either a 2 or 2 opener to show the 18-19 point hands.
"Phil" on BBO
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#10 User is offline   BillHiggin 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 08:44

I have seen two distinct styles of T-Walsh (and see replies here possibly representing each)

Style 1 (seems common in Northern Europe):
Simple acceptance of transfer shows 3 card support.

Style 2 :
Simple acceptance shows minimum usually balanced hand (may be similar strength in a 4-4-4-1 or 5-4-3-1 hand with shortness in responders suit).

Style 2 would normally rebid 1N to show 17-19 HCP balanced whereas Style 1 would need 1N to show the minimum balanced hand with less than 3 card support.

Since the OP referenced a 2N rebid as showing 18-19, it appears (to me) that Style 1 must be intended.
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#11 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 12:52

We rebid 1NT instead of 2NT with the strong balanced hands and use 2NT for other purposes. The downside is that we don't promise 3-card support when we complete the transfer.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 14:45

han, on Jul 2 2008, 01:52 PM, said:

We rebid 1NT instead of 2NT with the strong balanced hands and use 2NT for other purposes. The downside is that we don't promise 3-card support when we complete the transfer.

That's my preference, and while I have had limited experience playing T-Walsh, I have yet to see a downside.

We use 2N as the BWS nightmare hand: 1 1 2N shows typically a 6331 or a 6322 with 6 clubs and 3s and gf values. It hasn't come up yet, so I can't tell you how well it works in practice :(

But having the 1N rebid show 17-19 (when played with a 14-16 1NT) or 18-19 has worked very well, especially since, as is very common these days, we strain to respond to 1.
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#13 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 16:50

I accept transfer with 3 card support.
2NT is 18-19 and can have 3-card support.
After 2NT we play transfers.
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#14 User is offline   dbsboy 

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Posted 2008-July-02, 22:12

Playing 3-card acceptance transfer was what I originally did.

But I wanted 2N as a special convention so I played 2D = Genuine Reverse or 18-19 Balanced.

And 2N=FG with Clubs (may have support then) or a Jump to 3C without 3 Card Trump Support and 3C=a Jump to 3C with 3 card Trump Support, can signoff in 3M

Now I think 1M as minimum anything looks better
IF 1N=17-19 and even a 3-3-5-2 shape....so 1D can promise an unbalanced hand
and there is a lot of room to investigate onwards

And I could continue using my 2N/3C scheme. :P
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#15 User is offline   jvage 

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Posted 2008-July-03, 04:04

pclayton, on Jul 2 2008, 09:36 AM, said:

Edited: Do any top T-Walsh pairs really play a 2N rebid as 18-19? Even if you play that 1-1-1 shows 3 like the Italians do, they have either a 2 or 2 opener to show the 18-19 point hands.

The Norwegian pair Brogeland-Lindqvist (who won the butler in addition to the European championship in Pau) does, as do the players on Norways Junior and Womens team (the 2 other open pairs don't play T-Walsh). As mentioned by other posters the T-Walsh methods popular in Norway are different from what most posters here use in that a simple acceptance shows 3(4). It seems there is no standard solution to 18-19 hands with 3 cards support, some just accepts the transfer while others (including B-L) rebids 2NT. After the natural 2NT repeated transfers is the most popular method, also used by B-L (I know their system fairly well, since I have played the same methods partnering Lindqvist).

John
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#16 User is offline   joker_gib 

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Posted 2008-July-03, 05:05

jvage, on Jul 3 2008, 11:04 AM, said:

After the natural 2NT repeated transfers is the most popular method, also used by B-L (I know their system fairly well, since I have played the same methods partnering Lindqvist).

Hi John!

Repeated transfers are what I'm interested in !

Do you always re-transfer with 5 cards in the major ? If you show a second suit, do you have 5M ?

Could you post the detailed developments ?
Alain
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#17 User is offline   jvage 

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Posted 2008-July-03, 05:46

This is copied and pasted directly from B-L's supplementary sheets from Pau (I just fixed the suit-symbols), it should answer most of your questions. As mentioned earlier they rebid 2NT with (17)18-19 even with 3 card support. As you see they use transfers after the 2NT rebid even after other openings than 1 (no original transfer).

Note 2: Transfers after 2NT rebid
1m 1y
2NT
Transfers on 3-level and to both majors on 4-level. No Splinter!
o Transfers to 3, always accept
o Transfers to responders suit accept with 2card
o 1 - 1 - 2NT - 3: Opener makes a preference between and , 3may be 3 card
o 1 - 1 - 2NT - 3: Both minors, in search for the best game, OR may be stronger
o Jump to 4y for play 4 in that M, while 3y followed by 4 in that M is slamish (1 - 1 - 4 and 1 - 1 - 2NT - 4 is to play with both Majors)
o Jump to 4 is Natural slamish

1 1
2NT
Transfers on 3-level. Minor on 4-level is Splinter with as trump!
o Transfers to 3, always accept
o Transfers to responders suit accept with 2card
o Jump to 4 and 4 to play, while 3/, followed by 4/is slamish

John
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#18 User is offline   jvage 

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Posted 2008-July-03, 06:18

joker_gib, on Jul 3 2008, 06:05 AM, said:

Do you always re-transfer with 5 cards in the major ? If you show a second suit, do you have 5M ?

Since this is not explicit in the notes I can try to answer this myself.

Yes, normally.

No, in most sequences you will need to retransfer/rebid the major to show 5. For example after 1 - 1, 2NT:
3 - 3 - 3 shows 45(+) (system geeks will want to revert the 3/NT rebids)
3 - 3 - 3NT shows 44

I have not discussed with neither Espen L. nor any other partner how minor-suit rebids work, so I am honestly not sure wether say 1 - 1, 2NT - 3, 3 (forced) - 3NT could be made with only 44 in / (we always open 1 with 44 in the minors) or if it promise 5+ diamonds (I would guess it does). As in regular Walsh, with less than a gameforce responder would normally start by showing 4 spades before a longer minor, but facing a well-fitting 18-19 slam may still be in the picture.

John
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#19 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2008-July-03, 10:58

I play a simple 1 1 1 is exactly 3 cards in hearts, and forcing, unlimited. Additional strength is shown later. So 1 1 2NT is 17-18 with less than 3 hearts. In response to this, John's method above is better than mine, but yes, a retransfer is possible.
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#20 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2008-July-04, 08:19

One of the good things about this discussion board is how it gets you to talk situations over with your partner that you have just not considered together.
As a result we have now decided that after 1 1 (showing hearts) 2NT, all bids are transfers so that :
3 3 3NT is slam invitational with 5 diamonds
3 shows 6 hearts, and
3 shows 4+ spades.  Responder has not denied holding 5 spades, as our treatment with a less than invitational hand with 5/5 in the majors is to initially show the hearts, so opener treats this in a Walsh-like fashion.  He bids 3 with a 3 card suit, bids 3NT with 2, and 4 with 4. Over 3 responder can convert to 3NT or 4 accordingly.
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