[paulhar]

Hi - Almost all "experts" think that their answers are "the only way to play" here but they also don't agree with each other. My wife has researched four conventions teaching texts and no two agree with each other. So, some simple questions:

A few questions on how you think 2/1 Game Forcing should be played:

(a) 1H - 2D - 3NT: range?

( 1H - 2D - 2NT:

(b1) how many (and which) black suits could be unstopped?

(b2) and what are the ranges possible?

© Does 1H - 2D - 2S show extras?

(d) Does 1H - 2D - 3C show extras?

(e) 1H - 2D - 3H shows what?

Thanks!

[P_Marlowe]

#a and #b belong together.

I think it makes certainly sense to play 2NT
as 12-14 or 18-18, which would mean, that
3NT shows 15-17.

Both black suits could be missing a stopper.

#c and #d belong together

Depends, but I would say yes ant that this is the
more common agreement, i ensures that opener is
limiting it self, which will simplify later bidding.
But of course showing the shape before limiting itself
has also some advantages, it simplifes finding the fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Gerben42]

Quote

1H - 2D - 3NT: range?

To consume so much space you should have a minimum hand.

Quote

1H - 2D - 2NT:

(b1) how many (and which) black suits could be unstopped?

(b2) and what are the ranges possible?

b1. One, with both unstopped you might want to bid something else.

b2. Any 14+ hand.


© Does 1H - 2D - 2S show extras?

Yes.

(d) Does 1H - 2D - 3C show extras?

Yes.

(e) 1H - 2D - 3H shows what?

16+ with semisolid ♥

[pclayton]

LOL I hope you don't expect unanimity here. My take:

1. 15-17 and a hand inappropriate for opening 1N on a 5M332. Thus, it hardly ever comes up. Others have developed other non standard meanings like a SOLID suit which are probably better than 15-17.

2. 12-14 or 18-19. This one's easy.

3. Both black suits are stopped.

4. Yes it shows at least a King extra

5. Yes, see 4.

6. One loser suit maximum opposite a void.

[awm]

a: 15-17
b: 12-14 or 18-19; 18-19 bids again if partner raises to 3NT
b1: Neither suit should be wide open; 2♥ is a catch-all. Something like Qx is okay though.
c: A lot of disagreement on this one; I prefer "shows extras" but there is no standard really.
d: Most common agreement seems to be "shows extras or 5-5 shape"
e: Sets the suit, asks cuebids. I prefer to allow "one-loser suits" like AQJTxxx but some require a solid suit.

[Winstonm]

pclayton, on Apr 27 2008, 12:38 PM, said:

LOL I hope you don't expect unanimity here. My take:

1. 15-17 and a hand inappropriate for opening 1N on a 5M332. Thus, it hardly ever comes up. Others have developed other non standard meanings like a SOLID suit which are probably better than 15-17.

2. 12-14 or 18-19. This one's easy.

3. Both black suits are stopped.

4. Yes it shows at least a King extra

5. Yes, see 4.

6. One loser suit maximum opposite a void.

Phil and I must have read the same 2/1 book. I am in almost total agreement, only that I allow a fudge that when it is the most convenient bid, 1 1/2 of the black suits should be stopped, i.e, Qx is O.K. in a pinch.

[dcvetkov]

Winstonm, on Apr 27 2008, 01:02 PM, said:

pclayton, on Apr 27 2008, 12:38 PM, said:

LOL I hope you don't expect unanimity here. My take:

1. 15-17 and a hand inappropriate for opening 1N on a 5M332. Thus, it hardly ever comes up. Others have developed other non standard meanings like a SOLID suit which are probably better than 15-17.

2. 12-14 or 18-19. This one's easy.

3. Both black suits are stopped.

4. Yes it shows at least a King extra

5. Yes, see 4.

6. One loser suit maximum opposite a void.

Phil and I must have read the same 2/1 book. I am in almost total agreement, only that I allow a fudge that when it is the most convenient bid, 1 1/2 of the black suits should be stopped, i.e, Qx is O.K. in a pinch.

maybe I read the same book lol, or Software:)

The above is what I believe standard in 2/1. There is long discussion whether bid on 3 level or reverse shows extra values ( actually there is a thread here , extra long about that), showing shape before values?.

Jump rebbiding your suit, has a specific purpose,, 6 carder, very good suit, half a loser to 1 loser and you can play opposite a void, basically setting trumps and ivites cuebidding .Does not promise any other extras.

Actually I am suprised a little about this thread. I dont believe there are so many opinions about this or debating. As I said, this is what I believe is standard 2/1 Max Hardy/ M Lawrence. Everything else would be inventions from self proclamed experts.

[P_Marlowe]

dcvetkov, on Apr 28 2008, 09:12 AM, said:

<snip>

Actually I am suprised a little about this thread. I dont believe there are so many opinions about this or debating. As I said, this is what I believe is standard 2/1 Max Hardy/ M Lawrence. Everything else would be inventions from self proclamed experts.

But I believe, that Hardy and Lawrence differ, if it comes
to the point that reverse show add. strength or not, as far
as I could make out Hardy says no, Lawrence says yes.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

My ideas are NOT mainstream, but I believe they are superior.

> (a ) 1H - 2D - 3NT: range?

Playing a strong NT with no 5 card majors in it, you can use this scale:
12-14: 1M-2x-2M
15-17: 1M-2x-2NT
18-19: 1M-2x-3NT

> (B ) 1H - 2D - 2NT:
> (b1) how many (and which) black suits could be unstopped?
> (b2) and what are the ranges possible?

Stoppers are secondary to shape and strength. Just use 2NT whenever you have the necessary hcps and shape.

> (c ) Does 1H - 2D - 2S show extras?
> (d ) Does 1H - 2D - 3C show extras?

It should, otherwise responder will never know at what level to play.

> (e) 1H - 2D - 3H shows what?

I like to use it as 15-17, 6 card suit. If you open 18-20 6 carders with 1M, you might want to extend this 3M rebid to 15-20.

[whereagles]

Gerben42, on Apr 27 2008, 05:35 PM, said:

Quote

1H - 2D - 3NT: range?

To consume so much space you should have a minimum hand.

Prefer space-consuming bids to show well defined types of hands, rather than just mere mins.

One option is to use 3NT as a bal 18-19; the auction being forcing to 4NT. E.g.

1M 2x
3NT ..?

4NT = min 2/1, non forcing
4y = natural
4M = natural, support, forcing

etc.

[whereagles]

dcvetkov, on Apr 28 2008, 02:12 PM, said:

Actually I am suprised a little about this thread. I dont believe there are so many opinions about this or debating. As I said, this is what I believe is standard 2/1 Max Hardy/ M Lawrence. Everything else would be inventions from self proclamed experts.

I'm a self-proclaimed expert who invents things that can be argued to be better than Hardy's or Lawrence's trivialities.

[han]

paulhar, on Apr 27 2008, 12:24 PM, said:

(a) 1H - 2D - 3NT: range?

( 1H - 2D - 2NT:

(b1) how many (and which) black suits could be unstopped?

(b2) and what are the ranges possible?

© Does 1H - 2D - 2S show extras?

(d) Does 1H - 2D - 3C show extras?

(e) 1H - 2D - 3H shows what?

a) 15-17.

both black suit stoppers, either 12-14 or 18-19.

c) Yes it shows extras.

d) Yes it shows extras.

e) semi-solid suit, playable in slam opposite a void. At least mild extras.

These are not the only possible answers but of course they are the best.