[Echognome]

None Vul, Dealer is West (rotated for your convenience) and you are South.

♠J432
♥AQ843
♦---
♣KJ86

Auction goes 3♦ opened on your left. Partner passes and RHO bids 3NT. You pass, lefty passes and partner doubles. You have not discussed what double means. RHO bids 4♦. Over to you.

(3♦) - P - (3NT) - P
(P) - Dbl - (4♦) - ?

[rogerclee]

Partner is taking a shot with a reasonable hand and diamonds nutted. I like where my cards are, so I will just double. If partner takes this as responsive, that is okay, but I think this is business.

[matmat]

edited for content.

[pclayton]

rogerclee, on Apr 26 2008, 09:31 PM, said:

Partner is taking a shot with a reasonable hand and diamonds nutted. I like where my cards are, so I will just double. If partner takes this as responsive, that is okay, but I think this is business.

Agree with this. I might have bid 4♥ over 3N btw.

[the hog]

No. Pd is X for takeout. Come on, who hasn't bid 3NT as a baby psyche here. Incidentally I would not have passed 3NT! 4H for me.

[rogerclee]

The_Hog, on Apr 26 2008, 10:49 PM, said:

No. P is X for takeout. Come on, who hasn't bid 3NT as a baby psyche here. Incidentally I would not have passed 3NT! 4H for me.

Partner passed over 3♦.

[the hog]

I saw that. Pd probably has a flat shape with 12-15 pts. What would you bid over 3D with a 4333 shape and a 13 count, Roger?

[rogerclee]

The_Hog, on Apr 26 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

I saw that. Pd probably has a flat shape with 12-15 pts. What would you bid over 3D with a 4333 shape and a 13 count, Roger?

Pass. And then I'd pass over 3NT...

[Echognome]

So don't want to taint the discussion, but opponents bid to 3NT and partner doubles. We are on lead and no one considers that partner is making a lead director?

[the hog]

So they got you????
Gnome, if thats the case then pd has s****** it up. Now they're in 4D. I hope he pulls with his supposed AKQxx of S. We're odds to make 4S if he has that anyway and may even make 6. However what are you giving the 3NT bidder -
K of H, A or K of D, and maybe AQ of C? Thats a pretty miserly 13 count at best.

[rogerclee]

The_Hog, on Apr 26 2008, 10:59 PM, said:

So they got you????

Yes, if partner has a 12-count and we can make game, they got me. If partner has a random 3-count, I am in NV 1400 territory. These events do not have equal probabilities of occurring.

[gnasher]

I'm surprised that several people have said they'd have bid 4♥ over 3NT: to me a takeout double seems obvious. But perhaps you use the double to mean something else?

[the hog]

gnasher, on Apr 27 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

I'm surprised that several people have said they'd have bid 4♥ over 3NT: to me a takeout double seems obvious. But perhaps you use the double to mean something else?

X = strong balanced hand. 3NT was a baby psyche

[gnasher]

The_Hog, on Apr 27 2008, 10:35 AM, said:

X = strong balanced hand. 3NT was a baby psyche

The fact that 3NT may be a psyche seems to me to be a good reason for playing double as takeout.

If 3NT is a psyche, presumably RHO has a diamond fit, and his alternative would have been to raise diamonds. If he had raised to 4♦, a double would, I assume, have been takeout rather than strong balanced.

If you don't have a way to show a takeout double over 3NT, you are worse off than if he had not psyched. If, instead, you play double as takeout and 4♦ as whatever it would have been over 3♦, you gain from his psyche.

[655321]

Partner has doubled 3NT for penalties with diamonds held.

3♦-X = takeout
3♦-P-3NT-P
P-X is penalty

3♦-P-3NT-X is takeout of diamonds.

If you need to wait for a strong NT to double 3NT, you will have your candy stolen from you regularly.

[FrancesHinden]

Yes, I would have doubled 3NT take-out of diamonds.

The auction doesn't exactly add up. Partner seems to have shown a penalty double of diamonds, yet RHO's baby psyche is usually based on diamond support. There are too many diamonds in the pack!

[marcD]

I am probably too conservative but I do not see how dbl by partner could be for take out (what kind of hand would pass first and then dbl ?) or penalty. (BTW not clear to me either that my dbl of 3NT would be take out (probably shows a strong balanced hand) so my choice would have been between 4D and pass). For me it is clearly lead directing (probably spades). So I would guess 4S in a regular partnership or double 4D to see what comes next with a pick up partner

[Echognome]

Here is the full hand:

Scoring: MP

(3♦) - P - (3NT) - P
(P) - Dbl - (4♦) - All Pass

---

[skjaeran]

It really looks like a lead directing double with solid spades and not much else.

I'm bidding 4♠ now.

[jdonn]

skaeran, on Apr 27 2008, 11:00 AM, said:

It really looks like a lead directing double with solid spades and not much else.

I'm bidding 4♠ now.

Lol no one gets the answer, he posts the hand, and all of a sudden you seem really smart

I will say I don't understand at all these 4♥ bids over 3NT. Why not double instead???