[CSGibson]

I was wondering what was standard in auctions that start pass-pass-pass when:

1) opening at the 2 level
2) Opening at the 3 level
3) Opening at the 4 level


The reason I ask is that I was kibitzing a match where LHO was dealt:

---

and chose to open 1♠ in the fourth seat.

I thought it was pretty standard to make a 3 level opening with a 7 card suit and 8 & 1/2 tricks in the fourth seat, but no other kibitzer in a respectable sized crowd said that's what they would do when I asked, so I'm obviously mistaken.

[mike777]

I am far from an expert but:
1) 2s =good hand 6 cards in 4th seat, passable
2) 4s= I pass with 99.9% of hands
3) 3s in fourth seat....I must admit, this is so rare, extremely rare ....i have no idea......but i bet I pass every ten years it comes up
4) I open one spade here.

[rogerclee]

Two-Level: Something like a very good weak 2 to a really bad opener with 6 cards. A lot of people play this as 11-15 or so, but I dislike this a lot.

Three-Level: I do not do this, ever. Nothing good can happen from doing this without discussion.

Four-Level: 4M could be made on a wide range of hands. 4m is impossible.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

a 3rd level opener shows a good 7 card suit
and a good min. opening hand.

With the given hand, I would open 1S or 4S,
I would say the suit is not good enough for
a 3 level opening and I have to many values
outside spades.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Free]

CSGibson, on Apr 21 2008, 07:17 AM, said:

I thought it was pretty standard to make a 3 level opening with a 7 card suit and 8 & 1/2 tricks in the fourth seat, but no other kibitzer in a respectable sized crowd said that's what they would do when I asked, so I'm obviously mistaken.

What 8,5 tricks do you see???

[Mbodell]

I agree with my partner that our 4th seat non-1 level openings show a hand that expects to go down just 1 opposite a non-fitting bust hand. Seems a pretty comfortable 3♠ bid to me.

[whereagles]

2 lev: about 10-14 with good 6 card suit
3 lev: as above, but with 7 suit. If suit is spades, a bit stronger
4 lev: about 1 trick away from making it

the hand shown is borderline between 3 and 4 spades. Would bid 4 at imps.

[neilkaz]

Holding the boss suit, and three likely outside defensive tricks, why the need to open something other than 1♠ to preempt (yes I see the ♥ void).

I don't mind 3♠ here as it looks like 8 to 8.5 tricks, but PD may not understand that and also may not clearly understand a direct 4♠ which also could end up going set when the opps cannot make or can't get to 4♥, or miss a slam.

Without clear discussion with PD here, I wouldn't put much faith in his understanding of 3 or 4♠ so I'll take the slow route with 1♠

[jtfanclub]

Free, on Apr 21 2008, 04:38 AM, said:

What 8,5 tricks do you see???

Um, 5.5 spades, Ace of diamonds, AK of clubs.

Was that a trick question?

[Free]

jtfanclub, on Apr 21 2008, 03:18 PM, said:

Free, on Apr 21 2008, 04:38 AM, said:

What 8,5 tricks do you see??? 

Um, 5.5 spades, Ace of diamonds, AK of clubs.

Was that a trick question?

You don't even have ♠9, so I can't believe you count this as 5.5 ♠ tricks...

[jtfanclub]

Free, on Apr 21 2008, 09:37 AM, said:

You don't even have ♠9, so I can't believe you count this as 5.5 ♠ tricks...

You have 7 spades. In order for the 9 to have any import whatsoever, one of your opponents would have to have 4 spades, and your partner would have to be lacking the A and Q.

For an equivalent case, do you consider KQJxxxx to be 1 loser or 1.5?

[pclayton]

I kibbed this same hand and felt anything but 1♠ was a gross distortion.

This isn't my idea of a 4th chair preempt. 3♠ to me looks like: KQJxxxx, Ax, xxx, x. I have way too much defense, and my suit isn't up to snuff.

If we preempt in 4th chair, we have a purpose in mind.

[CSGibson]

pclayton, on Apr 21 2008, 08:24 AM, said:

I kibbed this same hand and felt anything but 1♠ was a gross distortion.

This isn't my idea of a 4th chair preempt. 3♠ to me looks like: KQJxxxx, Ax, xxx, x. I have way too much defense, and my suit isn't up to snuff.

If we preempt in 4th chair, we have a purpose in mind.

My thought was that a 4th seat bid as a preempt makes less sense (who are you preempting, exactly?), so the bids should be a specific description. Slam was missed on this hand opposite

---

,

after drury and what appeared to be a void-showing splinter, with one starred person and his partner doing the bidding. If this was shown as an 8 1/2 winner hand, this looks like a much easier slam to bid. Obviously it isn't smart to design a system around a specific hand, but I was still looking if anyone did define those 4th seat bids as strong single-suited bids, as opposed to weaker bids.

[pclayton]

CSGibson, on Apr 21 2008, 05:02 PM, said:

pclayton, on Apr 21 2008, 08:24 AM, said:

I kibbed this same hand and felt anything but 1♠ was a gross distortion.

This isn't my idea of a 4th chair preempt. 3♠ to me looks like: KQJxxxx, Ax, xxx, x. I have way too much defense, and my suit isn't up to snuff.

If we preempt in 4th chair, we have a purpose in mind.

My thought was that a 4th seat bid as a preempt makes less sense (who are you preempting, exactly?), so the bids should be a specific description. Slam was missed on this hand opposite

---

,

after drury and what appeared to be a void-showing splinter, with one starred person and his partner doing the bidding. If this was shown as an 8 1/2 winner hand, this looks like a much easier slam to bid. Obviously it isn't smart to design a system around a specific hand, but I was still looking if anyone did define those 4th seat bids as strong single-suited bids, as opposed to weaker bids.

I don't think it was the void splinter that was at fault.

The 7033 hand is huge opposite a limit raise.

[Mbodell]

If I had held Axx AKxx xxx xxx I would have probably opened 1NT 12-14 already in 2nd seat. If I held that hand and passed and partner opened 4th seat 3♠ I would have bid 4nt although I'd know I'd be taking a risk as KQJxxxx - xxx KQJ is certainly a possible hand holding and 5♠ (or even 4♠) might not be safe. But if partner can take 9 tricks without me my hand is worth 3 more tricks so I have to investigate.

[joker_gib]

I open 1♠

The hand is too good for any kind of jump in 4th seat, imo.

We can still have more than 4♠ !


The same hand with ♥'s in place of ♠'s and the problem is not so straightforward....

What do you think ?

[ArtK78]

I define a 4th seat 2 of a major opening as an opening bid which intends to rebid 2 of the major over any response.

As for a 4th seat 3 of a major, it should be a minimum opening bid with a good 7 card suit.

This hand is FAR too strong to open 3♠. I would open 1♠. Second choice - 4♠. But the problem is that you may want to play at a high level in a minor suit if partner has 9+ cards in the minors, zero or one spades and a good passed hand. Even 3NT may be right.