[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 Pass  1♠    2♥    3♣
 Pass  3♦    3♥    Dbl
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

[matmat]

3♦ bleah
p is showing a decent hand with 5+♣, we might as well support it. 3♥. (and yes, maybe this just asks for a stopper, but at least it doesn't deny clubs )

[Foxx]

Okay..... are we supposed to assume that one of the shown hands is to blame? Or that this contract either went down, or made? Can I say East for driving vulnerable to the three level all alone? Looking at just the North South hands, on a black-suit lead I see five likely defensive tricks, sometimes more.

And yes, I see that being in either 3NT or 5♣ offers fair play, but only that.

[han]

I don't care for this aceless 11-point opener at all.

[matmat]

han, on Feb 19 2008, 11:55 PM, said:

I don't care for this aceless 11-point opener at all.

blame the rule of 20

[the hog]

Blame for what, Kathryn? I would love to be defending 3Hx

[jillybean]

3♥X was a disaster; more due to the terrible defender play than anythingelse
but I also wanted to check in and see what people thought of the bidding.
Not much so far.

[whereagles]

bidding seems fine. I would bid slightly differently, but it's certainly sensible the way it went.

[jillybean]

Ok I realise this isnt everyones choice but having opened this aceless wonder, after 1♠ (2♥) 3♣ I thought it was better to probe for nt than 4♣ yuk. And having opened this garbage I cant back out now.
Isn't 3♦ a probe for NT promising ♣ tolerance?

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Feb 20 2008, 10:14 AM, said:

Ok I realise this isnt everyones choice but having opened this aceless wonder, after 1♠ (2♥) 3♣ I thought it was better to probe for nt than 4♣ yuk.
Isn't 3♦ a probe for NT with ♣ tolerance?

No.

Since 3C is forcing, and I would even say,
3C forces to game, you have to find a bid,
hence you are describing your hand if you
bid 3D, nothing more nothing less.
=> And of course, partner is allowed to bid
3NT, if he has a heart stopper.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Is 3C ok? Yes, South has a tough decision
to make, either he goes or not.
The alternative to 3c would be 2NT, assuming
it would be natural.

If the North hand is a typical opener, South may
need to rethink, if he should force to game, but
3C is fine.

[han]

No, 3D shows diamonds and does not show club tolerance. I do agree with you that 3NT is more likely the right spot than 5C so I don't mind 3D. If partner bids 3NT you pass, if partner bids 3H you casn bid 4C.

[Codo]

For me this is a clear opener.

But I really don´t like 3 ♦. Which game do you want to play? Your choices are
4 Spade ( then pd will raise spade, whatever you do now)
3 NT If pd has good stoppers
5 Club if he has no stoppers and no spade fit.

If pd wanted to play 5 Diamond, he had doubled 2 Heart to show Clubs AND Diamonds. He didn´t. So there is no way that a 3 Diamond bid can help you to find the right game.

Bid 3 HEart and pass 3 NT. This may not make this time, but it is still the correct spot in the long run.

[jillybean]

I never expect to be in 5♦ but after 1♠ (2♥) 3♣ wouldnt 3♥ be gf whereas 3♦ allows us to stop below game?

1♠ (2♥) 3♣ (P)
3♥

1♠ (2♥) 3♣ (P)
3♦

[gwnn]

3♣ should really really set a game force. makes every auction a whole lot easier.

[Codo]

jillybean2, on Feb 21 2008, 03:40 AM, said:

I never expect to be in 5♦ but after 1♠ (2♥) 3♣ wouldnt 3♥ be gf whereas 3♦ allows us to stop below game?

1♠ (2♥) 3♣ (P)
3♥

1♠ (2♥) 3♣ (P)
3♦

3 Club is without discussion a clear GF and with discussion I would still play it as one.

[jtfanclub]

Codo, on Feb 20 2008, 03:26 PM, said:

3 Club is without discussion a clear GF and with discussion I would still play it as one.

Funny, I play it as the reverse of Jilly....

1♠ (2♥) 3♣ (P)
3♥ (-P-) 3♠

This is the only possible auction after the 3♣ hand where we could stop below game. It says "We have lots of points, but we don't have a heart stop and we don't have a fit, so screw it".

Not everybody plays it that way, but I've certainly seen a lot of people do it!

[Foxx]

jillybean2, on Feb 20 2008, 04:27 AM, said:

3♥X was a disaster; more due to the terrible defender play than anythingelse
but I also wanted to check in and see what people thought of the bidding.
Not much so far.

Oh. So in order to really be able to assign the blame, shouldn't we be privy to the record of the defensive play? Or would you rather not?

Anyway I think the light has finally dawned on me; 3NT is coming home on a heart lead if the ♠J is onside, which is better than an even chance on the bidding. Given that North opened that aceless 11-count (muggh), after South's 3♣ comes back across, North should probably be trying to get to 3NT, which is why I prefer 3♥ to 3♦ in that regard.

[jillybean]

I will make note that 1♠ (2♥) 3♣ is GF

For those vultures, here's the play

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 Pass  1♠    2♥    3♣
 Pass  3♦    3♥    Dbl
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

CA C2 C6 H3
SA S8 S7 S4
S5 ST SJ SQ
D2 D4 D7 D8
C4 CJ H6 C3
S3 HA C7 S6
D3 D6 DK DA
S2 C5 H9 S9
HK H5 H7 H2
C8 CQ H8 CT
HQ H4 C9 D5
HJ HT DQ D9
DJ CK DT SK