[jocdelevat]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     1♥    Pass
 1♠    Pass  2NT   Pass
 3♣    Pass  3♠    Pass
 5♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

[gwnn]

what was 5♠?

[skjaeran]

gwnn, on Feb 16 2008, 10:17 PM, said:

what was 5♠?

Stupid, most probably.

[rogerclee]

This auction is wow.

[655321]

And what was 2NT?

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

[inquiry]

gwnn, on Feb 16 2008, 04:17 PM, said:

what was 5♠?

One treatment for 5♠ on an auction of this nature is to ask for slam if the one and only unbid suit is controlled. An exaggerated example might be...

♠AKQxx
♥void
♦xx
♣AKQxxx

IF partner has AKQ of hearts and QJ of diamonds, it is not good.

On the actual auction, 2NT was a considerable overbid. I think justin's response is dead on.. read that one.

[jocdelevat]

I thought(learning from this forum) of opening 1nt because of no rebid however I play most with pick up partners(most b/i) and I'm not sure if can use 1nt with 5 card major with them.
I was east and I didn't understand 5s too. I just suppose partner(adv level) wants me to bid 6s but I had 2 loosers in diamond and no info about diamond at all.
I bid 2nt just to force and hope pard has a stop in diamond if he pass.
I agree with what Jlall said about atacking bids and I think some b/i players complain already. I have no problem with those comments when I post because I expected it. If I was adv/expt I will not post here.
Everytime I post here I don't know if I have to post something I didn't understand or something interesting as the forum usually require.

[matmat]

2N was an overbid. 5s was a blame transfer.

[P_Marlowe]

jocdelevat, on Feb 16 2008, 10:44 PM, said:

I agree with what Jlall said about atacking bids and I think some b/i players complain already. I have no problem with those comments when I post because I expected it. If I was adv/expt I will not post here.
Everytime I post here I don't know if I have to post something I didn't understand or something interesting as the forum usually require.

Just one remark: DONT STOP POSTING.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: It is good, that this complain got raised, I was told
something similar in a private message.
It is also a good thing, that one of the leading posters
stepped in.
I scrapped my comment, because of Justins post, nothing
terrible, but also nothing really helpful.

[gwnn]

I asked "what was 5♠?" because I thought it had some sort of specific meaning.

If 5♠ has no specific meaning, the call should never be taken at the table. Whenever you feel like a bid may cause serious interpretation problems to partner, try as hard as possible not to make it. Many times I read e.g. in Fred's "deal of the week" series about "well, I wanted to bid ... to show ..., but we had not discussed this exact sequence, so I kept it simple with a ... bid". It's a very nice guideline in bidding, particularly in slam auctions - a disaster like missing a slam or bidding a slam off 3 keycards can hurt a lot. I apologize if I insulted you. Please don't stop posting.

[EricK]

The blame for missing a slam must go to West. After all, East overbid his hand!

One mistake which beginners often make - and I think it is based on a fear of getting the blame - is to look for excuses not to bid a game or slam. Here, the West hand is easily strong enough for slam opposite a 2NT rebid (he is obviously not aware at this point that East doesn't have a 2NT rebid!). Perhaps he doesn't see a way to find out if slam is laydown, but that is no excuse to not bid the slam but pass the buck to partner!

[Cascade]

inquiry, on Feb 17 2008, 10:47 AM, said:

One treatment for 5♠ on an auction of this nature is to ask for slam if the one and only unbid suit is controlled.

That is exactly what I would play.

[Cascade]

jocdelevat, on Feb 17 2008, 10:12 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     1♥    Pass
 1♠    Pass  2NT   Pass
 3♣    Pass  3♠    Pass
 5♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

Ron Klinger teaches or at least has taught in the past that this auction by opener shows around 16-18 hcp.

"In standard methods, this sequence shows opener with about 16-18 points and a 5-card heart suit, a 1NT opening except for the 5-card major." Guide to Better Bridge

So it is possible that 2NT is not an overbid for this partnership.

Yes I realize this is not standard SAYC.

The real problem here though is over 3♠ where responder needs to use the available space to cue-bid rather than take up valuable space with a jump to 5♠. And drive to slam when he gets any encouragement.

[kenrexford]

I'm not so quick to jump on West.

Assuming a basic approach:

1♥ (opening bid with hearts)
1♠ (I have 4+ spades)
2NT (overbid)
3♣ (I have 9+ cards in the black suits, either longer -- natural)
3♠ (I have delayed spade support, in case you are 5-4 and not 4-5)
5♠ (I was 5-4, but I need a hand with good help in my suits)
6♠ (I have three covers for you)

That seems like a logical sequence to me. It is not remotely my style, but I cannot find a single fault to the auction except the 2NT call. West's problem is that he has overkill in diamonds and a likely duplication of values with his heart void, hence unsuitable for trick-taking unless Opener can help his two broken suits. He cannot focus spades by bidding 4♣, because of the early problem.

The "early problem" is that 3♣ does not promise 5♠/4♣ by any rule other than agreement. It is certainly plausible for a partnership to bid 3♣ with a 4♠/5+♣ COV hand, to focus a diamond problem, to find 5♣, or perhaps even to find 4♥. If Opener makes a delayed raise of spades (3♠), Responder can bid 3NT to suggest that 4-5 holding. Again, not my style, but not ridiculous or stupid.

However, 2NT is wild. With even a 16-count, I could have some sympathy. 16, plus one for a five-card heart suit, gets you to a 17-count, which is real close to a 2NT rebid. 15 simply cannot get you near a 2NT call.

So, I assign the blame to East.

[Winstonm]

As a beginner or intermediate, this would be a difficult hand, especially if you are unfamilar or uncomftable with cue bidding.

As Justin pointed out, with a 5-card heart suit many experts will open 1N because of these types of rebid problems. However, that is not THE solustion, only a playable solution, as then finding a 5/3 heart fit is difficult.

I believe what happened here happens often with inexperienced players - opener made an overbid with 2NT, then over the slam invite did not cooperate because he had already overbid and feared doing more damage.

Let's try another auction with these hands.

1N-2H
2S-3C
3S-4D
6S*

Chosing to open 1N instead of 1H, partner transfers and then makes a game-forcing second suit bid of 3C. Opener sets trumps with 3S.

Now the key bid is made: 4D. What is it? It is a cue bid that shows two things: 1) an interest in slam and 2) control of diamonds, usually the Ace.

*Partner said he is interested in slam. Holding KQx of trumps, A of hearts, xx in diamonds, and K of partner's second suit, we are justified in simply bidding slam at this point.

As far as blame, it most likely lies with the lack of experience and bridge knowledge on both sides of the table.

I hope this response is not too simplistic.

[jocdelevat]

gwnn: " I apologize if I insulted you."

No need to apologize. I didn't feel offended. Noone can really offend me because I have "obrazul gros" (romanian words- do not know to translate)

[helene_t]

jocdelevat, on Feb 17 2008, 04:44 AM, said:

I thought(learning from this forum) of opening 1nt because of no rebid however I play most with pick up partners(most b/i) and I'm not sure if can use 1nt with 5 card major with them.

IMHO especially with a pick-up partner it is better to open 1NT as often as possible. It just makes the auctions easier. With a regular partner you can discuss some alternative ways of describing (semi)-balanced hands with 15-17 points.

However, if you do chose to open 1M, you must sell one of you minor suits as a 4-card. This is because by failing to open 1N you have denied a balanced hand with 15-17 points. Therefore, after having opened 1M, any notrump rebid shows a different range.

Quote

I was east and I didn't understand 5s too. I just suppose partner(adv level) wants me to bid 6s but I had 2 loosers in diamond and no info about diamond at all.

That sounds reasonable. Btw, partner should not "want you to bid 6". If he wants you to play 6, the way of conveying that is by bidding 6 himself!

Quote

I agree with what Jlall said about atacking bids and I think some b/i players complain already. I have no problem with those comments when I post because I expected it. If I was adv/expt I will not post here.
Everytime I post here I don't know if I have to post something I didn't understand or something interesting as the forum usually require.

I'm happy that Justin (JLall) took it up here. Part of the issue is that often, people forget to see what forum it is and just post as if it were adv/exp.

Anyway, posting questions like this one is very appropriate, certainly in the beg/int forum. Some will not find it interesting but that applies to all posts, don't worry.