[benlessard]

Scoring: IMP

---

(P)==P==(P)==1D
(1S)=X==(2D)=P
(2S)=X= all pass

2D was limit raise
-470

[rogerclee]

North went nuts. Passing with his hand is inconceivable; 100% to him.

[655321]

rogerclee, on Feb 4 2008, 02:54 AM, said:

North went nuts. Passing with his hand is inconceivable; 100% to him.

rogerclee, on Jan 16 2008, 05:57 PM, said:

It is almost inconceivable to me that partner's pass is nonforcing after 1H.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Sorry, Roger, couldn't resist.

Um, who is to blame?
If North had opened a weak NT, I think a negative double by South is bad with a singleton spade. On the actual auction, North is very likely to hold a weak NT, so there is real risk in doubling on a hand with very little defense, and a partial diamond fit. On the other hand he does have a shortage in their suit, and a lot of HCP. From North's point of view, a pass is not attractive, but neither is any action. I can see that passing and hoping to beat 2♠ X might appeal.

So even though the result is pretty bad, I have sympathy for both players, but I suppose 2NT scrambling instead of the final pass is best, so I must blame North.

[TimG]

Is that second double really takeout?

[TimG]

I know that north is going to look at his four spades and assume that the double is takeout.

What if the auction had been:

(P)-P-(P)-1♦
(1♠)-DBL-(1N)-P
(2♠)-DBL

?

Or, what if 2♦ had only shown a constructive raise to 2♠ rather than a limit raise?

[P_Marlowe]

TimG, on Feb 4 2008, 09:39 AM, said:

Is that second double really takeout?

... I would say, the 2nd double is still for take out,
but it is also optional, at least to a certain degree,
meaning, if one makes it, one has to take into
account, that the 2nd double will get passed out
sometimes.

And because of this, I think the South hand is a little
bit light for this action, but since South is a passed hand,
the action is still ok.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jtfanclub]

Jlall, on Feb 4 2008, 07:28 AM, said:

I don't think this is a crazy result, the second X is probably rich but I totally understand it (partners shape is the only one that offers no fit). Norths pass is certainly reasonable too, it would be very normal at MP, at imps maybe he's supposed to bid 2N. It wouldn't surprise me if a simulation showed north's pass to be the long term winner though.

I can't believe that's right with the 1♠ bid on his left. If the 1♠ bid was on his right, then sure. But there seems to be an awful lot of warnings that they're going to make 2♠X, such as the 2♦ bid.

[MFA]

I hate north's pass here. He has an uncomfortable hand, but surely he must scramble with 2NT.

[gwnn]

@ TimG: The less you know of partner's shape, the more t/o a double is.

The lower a double is made, the closer the double is to the ideal "4441" in the context of the double and the more urge partner should feel of bidding on.


The 2nd double was certainly a little pushing it, but what can you do. Passing it seems quite normal.

[tomb3113]

South knows that when he doubles North will be sitting most of the time with 4 spade and will at least consider passing. My question is then why south should X with no defensive values and no sure tricks? IMO if he doesn t want to play in 2SX he should find another bid. What can go wrong if he bids 2NT? Partner sitting with the S stopper should realise this can t be naturel and will bid on (even if he passes it won t be a disaster!)
So even if North pass is a bit optimistic at IMP, i will blame south for putting his partner on the hot seat.

[TimG]

So, 2NT and DBL are both takeout?

[EricK]

I don't like the second X. South has no more than he promised the first time, and he's got to assume that partner heard him the first time. North is unlikely to have 4♥ as he had a chance to bid them, and even if he has 3♥ it is not at all certain we will find that fit. So I don't think there's much of an upside and a fair chance that we will land in a 7 card fit (not to mention the disaster which actually happened).

[Cascade]

Jlall, on Feb 5 2008, 01:28 AM, said:

I don't think this is a crazy result, the second X is probably rich but I totally understand it (partners shape is the only one that offers no fit).

Sure we might have a 5=3 heart fit but is north really supposed to bid 3♥ on a three-card suit.

[Cascade]

For me north has a normal 2NT. Passing has little to gain. The opponents are too likely to have eight tricks and we are very unlikely to set them two or more on this auction.

[benlessard]

I was South and my reasoning was that West 2D (limit) inviting vs a passed hand was probably based on a 11 hcp with 4 trumps and some ruffing power, Its rare for me to have a 3 trumps raise worth a limit vs a passed hand. Maybe some do limit raises facing a passed hand to show values without game aspiration. As west holding 3 trumps i would almost always bid 2S.

PS If partner X 2D what do you play ?

1- longish D with desire to compete to 3D
2- lead directing (D or not D)
3- support X (3H)

I play 1 but i think 3 might be a better treatment