[655321]

benlessard, on Feb 4 2008, 11:06 PM, said:

PS If partner X 2D what do you play ?

1- longish D with desire to compete to 3D
2- lead directing (D or not D)
3- support X (3H)

I play 1 but i think 3 might be a better treatment

As a general rule I play double of the cue raise as takeout of their suit - never (1) or (2) above. In this particular case (South has basically bid hearts) double is a support double.

[MFA]

benlessard, on Feb 4 2008, 11:06 PM, said:

I was South and my reasoning was that West 2D (limit) inviting vs a passed hand was probably based on a 11 hcp with 4 trumps and some ruffing power, Its rare for me to have a 3 trumps raise worth a limit vs a passed hand. Maybe some do limit raises facing a passed hand to show values without game aspiration. As west holding 3 trumps i would almost always bid 2S.

PS If partner X 2D what do you play ?

1- longish D with desire to compete to 3D
2- lead directing (D or not D)
3- support X (3H)

I play 1 but i think 3 might be a better treatment

X of 2♦ is takeout of spades for me. This suggests 3 hearts, but it's not a support double as such.

[TimG]

Jlall, on Feb 4 2008, 10:11 AM, said:

In the second auction there is more of a case for penalty, but it is still for takeout in my agreements, because again responders hand is largely undefined and they need to have a bid for a large variety of hands that they could not bid if X is penalty. For instance:

xx KQxx Kxx Kxxx
xxx Kxxx Ax Axxx

These don't strike me as "takeout" doubles. More: "I've got extras for my actions so far and no clear action." Not all doubles are either "takeout" or "penalty" even if we don't label them "optional" or "cooperative".

I would have expected the double in question in the opening post to be somewhere in that fuzzy zone between takeout and penalty. And, as such, I can't imagine north not accepting the penalty invitation by passing with the actual trump holding.

I don't buy the argument that someone has put forth that the opponents are sure to have 8 trumps on this auction. A four-card 1♠ overcall is not that uncommon and the cue-bid limit raise could easily be based upon three-card support.

I think it should be unusual for responder to double 2♠ with a singleton spade. Looking at a singleton spade, he knows that opener is likely to have four-cards in the suit and will often think it a good idea to play for penalties with such a hand. Something that responder is going to be very uncomfortable doing.

[benlessard]

Quote

I would have expected the double in question in the opening post to be somewhere in that fuzzy zone between takeout and penalty.

Id usually prefer optionnal X (enough points to play in 2Nt but maybe no stoppers and 2/3 cards in their suits). But here we were playing standard so south 2nd X is 100% take-out there is no doubt about it. South could easily be void for the X.

Quote

North will be sitting most of the time with 4 spade and will at least consider passing.

Like ive said in my last post i think West is going to have a limit raise with 4 trumps the majority of times, East with a 7-9 hcp hand shouldnt be to fond of overcalling with only 4♠. So there is going to be a LOTT of 17 more often then 16 or 15. And passing with KT7x and 12 hcp facing a passed hand (and a limit raise by opps) is something i would not consider at all. If south bid 3something instead of X and the opps would compete to 3S would you X with the North hand ?

Also what do you think partner is going to lead if you pass the X of 2S ?

North has to do a safety bid & maybe south could have done the same by raising to 3D or passing. Maybe south was greedy hoping to make a 3level contract with such crappy values but North could easily be 3154 or even 3145 giving a fair shot to go plus on the deal.

Often in similar postion North is victim of sunk cost fallacy. Having the chance of an all pass north wasnt ready to conceed a minus score. Its the same when you make a penalty X and they run in a contract where you are not sure to set anymore, the fact that you had an easy plus score will clouded your judgement and you will X a 2nd time.