[goobers]

you're second seat, all vul

(1S) - x - (2S) - p
p - x

Minimum for this?

[CSGibson]

Minimum of spade shortness and enough to double the first time. At this point you are balancing, because your side has approximately half the deck and probably a fit somewhere, since they have a fit and stopped bidding.

[gwnn]

A king more than any t/o X that is your minimum. NEVER offshape.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

depends on partnership agreement, but I
would say, that the 2nd double does not
promise add. strength.
You have 4 hearts, a 2nd 4 card suit
and at most 2 spades.

Given that you are vulnerable, it may make
sense to raise the above requirements.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[goobers]

Okay, I don't think the second double is balancing at all, partner heard your first double, why should you restate the same values?

Anyway the story is that I passed after partner bid 3H, making 5 (4 is pretty cold) I held

x KQxx AKxx AQJx

[jdonn]

goobers, on Jan 9 2008, 03:21 AM, said:

Okay, I don't think the second double is balancing at all, partner heard your first double, why should you restate the same values?

Anyway the story is that I passed after partner bid 3H, making 5 (4 is pretty cold) I held

x KQxx AKxx AQJx

Your pass is a really big mistake, opposite Jxxxx of hearts and out you have great play for game. The way to think about these situations (where you have the final decision) is to think about some hands you need for game to be good. If they are consistent with partners bidding so far (pass, 3H), you should bid 4 unless they are just too "perfect."

You are trying to think of it like "I already showed extras, and partner bid 3H" which is an inferior way of thinking about it, but if you want to think of it that way you could easily have an ace (and/or a trump) less for your bidding so far.

[P_Marlowe]

goobers, on Jan 9 2008, 03:21 AM, said:

Okay, I don't think the second double is balancing at all, partner heard your first double, why should you restate the same values?
<snip>

Given that a lot of guys like to make "off shape"
t/o double, just look at threads were lots of guy
advocate making a t/o double with a bal. shape
and 4333 is included, do you really expect partner
with min. values to compete over 2S?
Should he really risk playing a 4-3 fit?

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdonn]

P_Marlowe, on Jan 9 2008, 03:35 AM, said:

goobers, on Jan 9 2008, 03:21 AM, said:

Okay, I don't think the second double is balancing at all, partner heard your first double, why should you restate the same values?
<snip>

Given that a lot of guys like to make "off shape"
t/o double, just look at threads were lots of guy
advocate making a t/o double with a bal. shape
and 4333 is included, do you really expect partner
with min. values to compete over 2S?
Should he really risk playing a 4-3 fit?

With kind regards
Marlowe

If partner has 3 spades himself (which he will when you are 1444 as a takeout doubler), he will not worry about you being 4333 since he knows you have at most 2 spades. If partner has 3(433) himself and some values he can just double. This will get you to all 5-3 fits and if partner scrambles with 2N you can bid your 4 card suit. If he bids this way he will always find a fit unless partner is specifically 2443 with 3 of your 4 card suit. This would be very unlucky.

Basically, when the opponents have an 8 card fit you will always have an 8 card fit yourself unless you have 3 7 card fits. If they have a 9 card fit you will always have a fit. If you won't X 2S with a 3(433) 8 count because you're scared partner may also be 4333 you are not listening to the opponents.

[mcphee]

How is it sensible for the second dble to be the same minimum hand that the first dble might have been? And the answer is ZERO sense.

Here we have a case where partner has passed 2S in theory suggesting he has bupkis and was unable to compete with an comfort. This of course is not to say he is broke, and he may well have some values. Now when this comes back the the initial hand making the t/o dble they are now, opposite a possible very eak hand, going to drive partner to the 3 level and it is also possible for the responder to PASS the dble.

While we all can agree that dbles are for t/o we also should appreciate that we can't bid the same hand twice and that stepping into the 3 level with minimum hands could result in didgits of 4 figures. They may also result in partner reconsidering their meager vaules and bidding a game that fails. What ever happened to the school of thought which was, "the more you bid the more you have"?

[joker_gib]

Jlall, on Jan 9 2008, 09:23 AM, said:

Obviously shows extras, if you have a minimum and are supposed to push them higher partner would have done it already.

Agreed

[jtfanclub]

jdonn, on Jan 9 2008, 03:31 AM, said:

If partner has 3 spades himself (which he will when you are 1444 as a takeout doubler), he will not worry about you being 4333 since he knows you have at most 2 spades.

I feel the 2nd X shows full strength and good shape: I'd do it with a 12 count 1-4-4-4. I expect a considerable portion of the time that partner will have 4 or even 5 spades and will leave it in. After all, if you rarely double 2♠ for penalty, if your opponents don't raise in competition with an honor doubleton, they'll start soon.

I don't consider this X balancing, exactly...I consider it protecting. Partner is very likely to either have the spades (and points) for a penalty X or else a fit with you somewhere. The only times it's going to be right to let them play in 2♠ is when you didn't really have your bid in the first place.

[han]

gwnn, on Jan 9 2008, 01:48 AM, said:

NEVER offshape.

No? Say you doubled initially with xx AKJx Ax AJxxx (wouldn't you?), wouldn't you double again?

[gwnn]

yea, you're right

[Cascade]

Around 13/14 hcp with perfect shape.

This of course is extras as with perfect shape I would have made a takeout double with 11 hcp and maybe even 10 hcp in direct seat.

I need a bit more without perfect distribution.

[P_Marlowe]

Cascade, on Jan 9 2008, 08:42 PM, said:

Around 13/14 hcp with perfect shape.

This of course is extras as with perfect shape I would have made a takeout double with 11 hcp and maybe even 10 hcp in direct seat.

I need a bit more without perfect distribution.

Yes.

The question is always, what does "extras" mean.

With kind regards
Marlowe