[cwiggins]

Many/most Precision players have found it advantageous to restrict the 2C opening to hands with 6+ clubs.

What are the reactions to doing the same in the Polish Club?

Hands with 5 clubs and a 4-card major would be opened 1C. One scheme is to bid these 5 clubs and 4-card major hands the same way that you would bid if you had a 4441 or as balanced if partner bids your shortness. For example:

Over 1C-1D, bid your 4-card major.

Over 1C-1M: if partner bids your 4-card major, raise to 2 or 3 depending on your strength. With 5341 hands and partner bids something other than your 4-card major, bid 1S holding 4 spades, 1NT with a singleton in partner's M, or raise partner's major even though you have only 3-card support. With 5422, raise the major or bid NT.

Over 1C-1NT, opener has the same ugly choice as with 4441 hands.

Etc.

The weakness is that when opener makes a rebid showing a balanced hand, then the club suit is suppressed. Offsetting this, 4-4 major fits will not be missed.

I feel sure that some experienced Polish Club players have experimented with this and would like their reactions.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

[the hog]

Hands with 5 clubs and a 4-card major would be opened 1C. One scheme is to bid these 5 clubs and 4-card major hands the same way that you would bid if you had a 4441 or as balanced if partner bids your shortness. For example:

Over 1C-1D, bid your 4-card major.

The problem with this approach is a further lack of definition in the 1C opening. Don't forget that a 1D response can contain various strong hands as well as interm strength minor suit hands. I can't really see how you would be able to sort out what opener has, especially with some intervention.

Why don't you have a look at Strefa, which is similar to Polish club, but has a 2C GF opening. 1C openings are now 12-14 balanced, 18-23 balanced or 12-22 with Cs.

[Gerben47]

This is a good idea if you discuss what to do with unbalanced 11 - 15 5♣ + 4♥ after 1♣ - 1♠. The 4-4-1-4 hand is not really a problem unless partner bids 1NT in which case you pass or invite.

One possibility is to use the AUC structure, or something nearer to PC:

1♣ - 1♠ - ?
2♣ = 11-15, 5♣ + 4♥
2♦ = Relay, almost always invitational
2♥ = Odwrotka (GF 3+♠)

1♣ - 1♠ - 2♦ - 2♥ - ?
2♠ = Invitational, 3♠ (and therefore at least 5♣)
2NT = Invitational Reverse without 3♠
3♣ = Invitational 6+♣
3♦, 3♥, 3♠: GF 2-suiters without ♠

After 1♣ - 1♦ you rebid 1 of your 4-card major with the 5-4 hands and responder will now let you know if he has one of the stronger variants, so no problem there either.

[Cascade]

cwiggins, on Feb 20 2004, 02:43 AM, said:

Many/most Precision players have found it advantageous to restrict the 2C opening to hands with 6+ clubs.

Less disadvantageous would be a better description.

The 2♣ opening is certainly one of the disadvantages of a strong club system or Polish club system.

The standard systems have a big advantage when the bidding goes

1♣ 1Major ...

when on the same hand the strong clubbers are starting with

2♣ ?

Two problems can occur:

You can miss your major by not bidding

OR

you can wind the auction up too high by introducing your major.

Restricting the 2♣ opening to six-card suits only counters this disadvantage by reducing the frequency of the problems.

You open 2♣ less often and you want to move to another flavour less often when partner guarantees a six-bagger.

Wayne

[inquiry]

Cascade, on Feb 20 2004, 06:22 PM, said:

cwiggins, on Feb 20 2004, 02:43 AM, said:

Many/most Precision players have found it advantageous to restrict the 2C opening to hands with 6+ clubs.

Less disadvantageous would be a better description.

The 2♣ opening is certainly one of the disadvantages of a strong club system or Polish club system.

Well.... I got to where I thought my 2♣ auctions was one of the stronger part of my precision system I use to play (caveat, I generally don't play it anymore). What I found the problem with precision was...

1) the nebulous ♦ - never knowing when to bid to the limit,
2) the limit range of parnter - A double edge sword, but they kept counting us out on Defense
3) Effective preemption against our 1♣ auction before we had a chance to show suit(s) and general range.

Now, of course there is a lot of merit to 1♣ artificial and strong...too.... I don't mean this as a general slam of the system. Many I was replying to the comment about 2♣... btw, in Power Precison, Sontag also says that he thinks the 2♣ opening bids is one of the strongest parts of their system, not one of the weaker (they also require a fairly good six card suit).

Ben

[mikestar]

Cascade, on Feb 20 2004, 11:22 PM, said:

cwiggins, on Feb 20 2004, 02:43 AM, said:

Many/most Precision players have found it advantageous to restrict the 2C opening to hands with 6+ clubs.

Less disadvantageous would be a better description.

Less disadvantageous if the bid is considered by itself--but you have your choice of losses elsewhere:

• Use a nebulous 1♦ that could be a doubleton and the Precision 2♦
  
• Use a super-nebulous 1♦ that could be a void.

The first alternative causes some losses on the 1♦ hands and uses 2♦ for a low frequency opening when it might do good service in your preemptive system.

The second alternative causes greater losses on the 1♦ hands.

If your 2♣ structure allows you to get out in two of a major on a 4-3 fit, you can get some of the 2♣ losses back.

My style:

• Don't be afraid to open 2♣ on five.
  
• Have 1♦ promise 4.
  
• Open 4=4=1=4 hands 1♥. It's too infrequent to cause significant loss on our 1♥ hands.

Many will not agree with me in the context of Precision, and in Polish, there will be different tradeoffs. I'm hoping to show the kind of analysis that is needed.

[keylime]

Precision Today proposes both 5-4's and 6+ club suit with a strong bias towards the latter. With pard and I it depends on scoring - MPs we lean towards 5-4's, IMPs towards six carders.