[Apollo81]

See above.

[pclayton]

Penalty. I think we covered this one earlier in the year.

[FrancesHinden]

pclayton, on Dec 12 2007, 06:09 PM, said:

Penalty. I think we covered this one earlier in the year.

We did. 'Standard' is penalty, but I happen to play it as take-out (in fact, my preference is that it's penalty against weak players and take-out against strong ones, but that's too complicated to bother with)

[jdonn]

FrancesHinden, on Dec 12 2007, 12:17 PM, said:

my preference is that it's penalty against weak players and take-out against strong ones, but that's too complicated to bother with

I'm fairly confident in fact that that's the optimal agreement hehe.

[whereagles]

RS say "penalty"

EDIT: sorry. actually, they say take-out.

[karlson]

I'm pretty sure I'd want to play this as takeout. There are 3 possible strains in play, as well as defending.

It's takeout with everyone I've discussed it with for me.

[mike777]

Apollo81, on Dec 12 2007, 11:30 AM, said:

See above.

this just came up last night..Penalty, partner has AKQ of trumps and much more.

[awm]

I'm sure standard is penalty.

In every partnership where I've discussed this, I play it as takeout.

Perhaps one point is the meaning of 1x-p-p-1y; 2x-p-p-dbl. I think this is universally played as takeout. I generally like a rule where my double in direct seat means more or less the same thing as partner's double would mean in balancing seat.

[P_Marlowe]

t/o, but with tolerance for the overcalled suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ArtK78]

A question for those of you who believe the double is for takeout.

Suppose partner, in direct seat, has a penalty double of 1x. He passes (as anyone would), hoping that you will reopen with a double if his LHO passes. Sure enough, LHO passes but, instead of reopening with a double, you reopen with 1y. Now RHO bids 2x.

Are you seriously arguing that he cannot double for penalties in this situation? And what is the usefulness of a double for takeout by a hand that could not double for takeout initially only to hear partner reopen with a suit bid?

By the way, it is absolutely clear that the "standard" interpretation of the double of 2x is a penalty double.

[dburn]

ArtK78, on Dec 12 2007, 02:05 PM, said:

A question for those of you who believe the double is for takeout.

Suppose partner, in direct seat, has a penalty double of 1x.  He passes (as anyone would), hoping that you will reopen with a double if his LHO passes.  Sure enough, LHO passes but, instead of reopening with a double, you reopen with 1y.  Now RHO bids 2x.

Are you seriously arguing that he cannot double for penalties in this situation?  And what is the usefulness of a double for takeout by a hand that could not double for takeout initially only to hear partner reopen with a suit bid?

By the way, it is absolutely clear that the "standard" interpretation of the double of 2x is a penalty double.

Suppose you have:

♠76 ♥AQ32 ♦J4 ♣A7632

You would not double 1♠ for takeout, would you? Nor would you overcall (if you would, then you should probably defer lessons in bidding theory until you have learned something about bidding judgement).

When the auction proceeds 1♠ - pass - pass - 2♦; 2♠ to you, what call do you make? You would like double to be for takeout, but you cannot seriously see the use of such an agreement. There are many things you cannot see, but this does not mean that they are not there.

[pclayton]

dburn, on Dec 12 2007, 11:15 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Dec 12 2007, 02:05 PM, said:

A question for those of you who believe the double is for takeout.

Suppose partner, in direct seat, has a penalty double of 1x.  He passes (as anyone would), hoping that you will reopen with a double if his LHO passes.  Sure enough, LHO passes but, instead of reopening with a double, you reopen with 1y.  Now RHO bids 2x.

Are you seriously arguing that he cannot double for penalties in this situation?  And what is the usefulness of a double for takeout by a hand that could not double for takeout initially only to hear partner reopen with a suit bid?

By the way, it is absolutely clear that the "standard" interpretation of the double of 2x is a penalty double.

Suppose you have:

♠76 ♥AQ32 ♦J4 ♣A7632

You would not double 1♠ for takeout, would you? Nor would you overcall (if you would, then you should probably defer lessons in bidding theory until you have learned something about bidding judgement).

When the auction proceeds 1♠ - pass - pass - 2♦; 2♠ to you, what call do you make? You would like double to be for takeout, but you cannot seriously see the use of such an agreement. There are many things you cannot see, but this does not mean that they are not there.

The problem is that you can bid with this hand. I like 3 heabs or 3 clearts.

Of course playing this system, I can say "penalty double".

Seriously, with David's hand I don't mind 3♥. If you have a true penalty double which happens a fair amount of the time, you have to wait for a reopening double which usually doesn't happen.

I think the real problem hand is something like a 3=3=3=4 12 count where you'd like double as card-showing.

[cherdano]

3 Hearts on AQxx? Is this forcing? Can we almost GF opposite a balancing 2♦ overcall? Or do we want to play 3H on a 4-2 fit?

[whereagles]

ArtK78, on Dec 12 2007, 07:05 PM, said:

1. A question for those of you who believe the double is for takeout.

Suppose partner, in direct seat, has a penalty double of 1x. He passes (as anyone would), hoping that you will reopen with a double if his LHO passes. Sure enough, LHO passes but, instead of reopening with a double, you reopen with 1y. Now RHO bids 2x.

Are you seriously arguing that he cannot double for penalties in this situation? And what is the usefulness of a double for takeout by a hand that could not double for takeout initially only to hear partner reopen with a suit bid?

2. By the way, it is absolutely clear that the "standard" interpretation of the double of 2x is a penalty double.

1. If you wanna dbl for penalties, you do the usual stuff: wait for pard dbl again.

2. Clear to whom? I've had this situation come up a couple of times with several different pards. All my pards that dbled turned up to have a.... you guessed it: a take-out dbl.

[ArtK78]

I stand corrected.

Quite frankly, I have not run into this situation in a very long time. As has been mentioned by me and others, the "standard" treatment of the double here is penalties.

I see that using the double for takeout is better.

[jdonn]

cherdano, on Dec 12 2007, 02:58 PM, said:

3 Hearts on AQxx? Is this forcing? Can we almost GF opposite a balancing 2♦ overcall? Or do we want to play 3H on a 4-2 fit?

Phil seems to have thought partner doubled rather than overcalled. Of course then the usual issues with responsive doubles apply. If the opponents are bidding a minor you might have both majors, if they are bidding a major you might have both minors.

[whereagles]

dburn, on Dec 12 2007, 07:15 PM, said:

Suppose you have:

♠76  ♥AQ32  ♦J4  ♣A7632

You would not double 1♠ for takeout, would you?

you know... I might just be tempted to butt-in a dbl. There's a lot to be said for taking action as early as possible. Even if it might cost you a crash landing into the 5-2 or 4-2 fit.

[Walddk]

whereagles, on Dec 12 2007, 10:55 PM, said:

dburn, on Dec 12 2007, 07:15 PM, said:

Suppose you have:

♠76  ♥AQ32  ♦J4  ♣A7632

You would not double 1♠ for takeout, would you?

you know... I might just be tempted to butt-in a dbl. There's a lot to be said for taking action as early as possible. Even if it might cost you a crash landing into the 5-2 or 4-2 fit.

If you have sub-minimum values for a take-out double, you should at least have an ideal shape. Your example hand is far from ideal. And you can't even venture an Equal Level Conversion (ELC) over a 2♦ response.

However, if you have ...

xx
AQxx
Axxxx
Jx

... it's more appealing to double, because you can convert to 2♦ over a 2♣ response if ELC is part of your agreements.

Roland

[pclayton]

cherdano, on Dec 12 2007, 11:58 AM, said:

3 Hearts on AQxx? Is this forcing? Can we almost GF opposite a balancing 2♦ overcall? Or do we want to play 3H on a 4-2 fit?

The thread deals with the meaning of a double of 2S. I thought Dburn was discussing the bidding problem of what to do with this hand after a 2S call.

Discussing what to after a 2D balance is somewhat off-topic.

[Walddk]

Back to the topic. I play double as take-out. If I have a penalty of 2x, I must obviously pass, and it's not impossible at all that partner re-opens with a double now that he has shown his long suit already when he bid 1y.

Roland