[dburn]

pclayton, on Dec 12 2007, 04:56 PM, said:

cherdano, on Dec 12 2007, 11:58 AM, said:

3 Hearts on AQxx? Is this forcing? Can we almost GF opposite a balancing 2♦ overcall? Or do we want to play 3H on a 4-2 fit?

The thread deals with the meaning of a double of 2S. I thought Dburn was discussing the bidding problem of what to do with this hand after a 2S call.

Discussing what to after a 2D balance is somewhat off-topic.

I am a bit lost here. True, the original post asked for the "standard" meaning of double after 1x - pass - pass - 1y; 2x. In the example I gave, the auction was of the form 1x - pass - pass - 2y; 2x. I guess that might make a difference, but not so much of a difference as to be "off-topic". We can modify my original example easily enough:

♠76 ♥AQ32 ♦J4 ♣A7632

RHO opens 1♦ and you pass (if you would double or overcall 1♥ or 2♣, you need read no further - as Bobby Wolff remarked, I admire you but I don't want your results). This is passed round to partner who bids 1♠, whereat RHO bids 2♦. What call do you make?

Frances may have had a discussion on the topic similar to one I had with members of what was then (and may still be) the cool school; I can recall someone (Jonathan Cooke, perhaps?) explaining to me that you should double bad players for penalty but good players for takeout. That may be theoretically best, but I can see one or two problems arising in the context of "full disclosure"; it would be a trifle awkward to have to ask LHO how bad a player RHO is before doubling.

Don't get me wrong - I cast my vote for "penalty" because as ArtK78 correctly says, that is the standard meaning insofar as there is a "standard". But the original poster was quite right to include an option that "it depends on x and y".

People who play five-card majors and rebid their major at the two level in this kind of sequence will not have a hand consistent with being doubled for a huge penalty. Even the bad players are getting better these days, and you don't come by 1100 penalties nearly as often as you used to.

But people who play systems where a 1m opening may be 2, 1 or even 0 cards (prepared 1♣, Precision 1♦ and the like) might well take a chance on rebidding their minor with a ropey six-card suit. I know this for a fact - I used to do it myself, but I made sure I had garnered several master points before doing it against Jonathan Cooke.

[MFA]

I play it as penalty, but I have no strong feelings about it. It's a nice one to have discussed with partner.

I agree that it's more tempting to play penalty doubles here against weak opponents. This is a situation where a bad player might rebid his suit WAY to aggressively.

[benlessard]

In Imps Penalty in MP i guess both methods are playable.

The fact you pass and the fact partner didnt X or made a intermediate jump shift make game a bit unlikely. So its reasonnable to use the X for penalty instead of a neg X only for competitive purposes. In MP competing is so important that i have no problem with playing neg X.

Since its a rare sequence i dont waste too much enegy on this 1 and play standard= penalty

[whereagles]

Walddk, on Dec 12 2007, 09:15 PM, said:

If you have sub-minimum values for a take-out double, you should at least have an ideal shape. Your example hand is far from ideal. And you can't even venture an Equal Level Conversion (ELC) over a 2♦ response.

Well, I know that, of course. The point was that it might just be statistically favourable to dbl despite the risk pard bids diamonds.

[whereagles]

dburn, on Dec 12 2007, 10:37 PM, said:

♠76 ♥AQ32 ♦J4 ♣A7632

RHO opens 1♦ and you pass (if you would double or overcall 1♥ or 2♣, you need read no further - as Bobby Wolff remarked, I admire you but I don't want your results).

I wouldn't mind to have to have Marshall Miles' results

[Codo]

Maybe this is more a a georaphicasl issue. As far as I read the comments, it is 100 % penalty in the US but at most 10 % in Europe?

And for the value of pen. or take out:

How often do I have AKJxx in a suit opener rebids and how often do I have a hand like davids examples of ♠76 ♥AQ32 ♦J4 ♣A7632?

And what are my solutions if I have AKJxx and no pen. double? 3 NT maybe? Or sit and wait?

What are my solutions for ♠76 ♥AQ32 ♦J4 ♣A7632 after
1 ♦ pass pass 1 ♠ 2 ♦ without a take out double?

I prefer take out and would believe that this is standard at least in Germany.

[FrancesHinden]

Codo, on Dec 13 2007, 12:08 PM, said:

And for the value of pen. or take out:

How often do I have AKJxx in a suit opener rebids and how often do I have a hand like davids examples of ♠76 ♥AQ32 ♦J4 ♣A7632?

To be honest, although I've agreed this as take-out, in the last 5 years or so

- I have made a take-out double once
- I have a seen a hand suitable for a penalty double twice:

i) there was a large penalty after 4th hand reopened (flat board in 800)

ii) we went for 300 undoubled in our 6-0 fit, but this was the best result available for the defending side as we had an alternative 5-3 fit that was at most 1 off and may have been making

Not exactly conclusive, and not that high on my list of things to worry about.

[whereagles]

Well, that's an interesting experience, which contradicts mine. Perhaps the subject deserves a statistical study more than we thought.

[Walddk]

Michael Askgaard (MFA) and I play it differently so there is evidently not a consensus among experts even in a small country like ours. I know for a fact that two of Michael's team-mates next season play double as take-out. Both approaches are no doubt fine as long as you have a firm agreement.

Over the years I have subscribed to a rule that, if nothing else, is easy to remember:

Double of low level contracts are for take-out unless it's obvious that the opponents have a misfit, or if preceded by redouble (good hand).

It is not clear to me that the opponents have a misfit if the bidding goes ...

1♣ pass pass 1♥
2♣

Roland

[mcphee]

The balancing hand failed to balanced with
1. intermediate jump o/c
2. 1NT relatively balanced hand with some number of the enemy suit. usually 3+
3. dble for t/o showing support for other suits and protecting the passed hand.

The balancing hand might be 5-4-2-2 and not very strong. The hand that rebid the opened suit has generally 6+ cards and could have a reasonbable hand in view of partner failure to bid, so they have nada really. Now it is true the hand who opened and rebid might be a terrible player who paid his card fees and intends to play 97% of all hands and to hell with what partner happens to think.

It makes far more sense to be that this dble should be to compete. As David Burn showed there happen to be a few hands that fall into this group. How many hand types do you get this chance to smash the guy for penalty? Especially opposite a hand that has only balanced and may have not so much defensively?

Low level penalty dbles is a hard way to get good results.

[keylime]

Sabine's book has a textbook example of this auction, and the hand involved was a flat 4333 NT overcall with a very strong suit of opener's.

[whereagles]

mcphee, on Dec 13 2007, 02:42 PM, said:

Low level penalty dbles is a hard way to get good results.

huh.. not true. It is precisely at low level that penalties are more juicy. It's hard to set a voluntarily bid game/slam by a lot, but it's common to murder 2/3-something on a misfit.