[jdonn]

elwood913, on Nov 16 2007, 03:38 PM, said:

When he's got AKxx xxx KQx xxx shouldn't he be excited?

Gah, NO!!!!! I'll be posting it until my death. When partner is under pressure, don't hang him!! Some slams will be missed, but you won't go down at the 5 level, and more importantly you gain so much more from partner being able to stretch and get your side into the auction.

Quote

When p has this you'll be in 4♥ after his X.

No no no no no! Doubling with that hand after 4♣ P P is nutso, that is not even close. 4333, seriously?? So the hand with 7 tricks and a void has to pass, but the balanced hand with 3 or 4 tricks is bidding? Good grief! Sorry I know I'm going nuts here, but doubling with that hand at the 4 level?

[awm]

Usually if partner has 3+♣ he will not find a balancing call. It's simply too dangerous to jump into auctions at this level when you may not have much for values and you could be long in preempters suit in both hands -- this is a good recipe for being doubled and going for -1100. Obviously if partner has a moose of a hand (18 hcp or whatever) he will find a bid, but this is an extreme case.

So deciding what to do in such auctions, we have to ask ourselves: how many clubs does partner have? (or in general, how many cards in the suit opponents opened). If I have a bunch of clubs, it raises the odds that partner has short clubs. If I have a bunch of clubs and so does partner we may not make anything even if we have points, since the opponents are going to grab a bunch of club tricks off the top and the side suits are going to break badly. If I have a bunch of clubs and partner has short clubs, I can rely on partner to balance when he has a good hand. So the more clubs I have, the more safe I am to pass.

When I have the short clubs, there is a real danger that we can make something but partner can't find a balance. So I have to bid aggressively. Partner should be aware of this, and should give me some leeway when it looks like I have the short clubs.

Obviously there is a problem when both partner and I am short in clubs. Fortunately, the opponents will sometimes let us know about this situation by raising the club preempt. If opponents do pass, it's possible that we will push ourselves to the five-level, basically because partner looks at his short clubs and thinks that I must have some clubs, and therefore I have a good hand for my bid and we should look for slam. Then again, the opponents probably had a good sacrifice in 5♣ anyway, so we lose only a little by being at the five level. In any case, if I had passed it hardly solves the problem, since bidding only 4♥ with a seven card suit after partner makes a four-level takeout double is quite wimpy in any case, and partner will often leave us to play there when he has (say) AKJx Qxx AKJx xx and slam makes fairly easily (since of course we basically had to bid and could have a balanced hand with 4-5♥).

[han]

Thanks Josh, especially for clearing up this misconception:

jdonn, on Nov 16 2007, 01:47 PM, said:

By the way, "don't preempt over a preempt" is not advice intended to prevent you from bidding with bad hands over a preempt. It means that when the opponents preempt and you jump over that, it shows a good hand not another preempt. That advice has nothing to do with this situation (unless you are wondering what a 5♥ bid would mean.)

[elwood913]

Thanks Adam for that post, it helps sort out what I've been missing. Others had posted that the club shotness is what really makes you want to bid this hand, and I see now that is not just because it makes your hand better but that it makes p's bid so tough. (some strong reactions from others helped that point come home, too ) And, when p has clubs he can have a good idea you may be bidding on such a hand and won't get overly excited. I was worried that the direct bid would be confusing because it would be very hard to sort out what type of hand the 4♥ bidder has, but if partner takes a look at his club holding (and the opponents decision to carry on or not) he will have at least some idea.

Thanks all,
Bill

[jdonn]

elwood913, on Nov 16 2007, 05:36 PM, said:

(some strong reactions from others helped that point come home, too )

Sorry

I took deep breaths, and I feel better now!

[han]

I didn't notice the strong reactions. When I read Josh's "Gah", "No, no, no" and "nutso double" I think of him as only mildly interested.

If you want to find some of his stronger comments, search for "jdonn permanently frozen thread".

[skjaeran]

jdonn, on Nov 16 2007, 10:05 PM, said:

elwood913, on Nov 16 2007, 03:38 PM, said:

When he's got AKxx xxx KQx xxx shouldn't he be excited?

Gah, NO!!!!! I'll be posting it until my death. When partner is under pressure, don't hang him!! Some slams will be missed, but you won't go down at the 5 level, and more importantly you gain so much more from partner being able to stretch and get your side into the auction.

Quote

When p has this you'll be in 4♥ after his X.

No no no no no! Doubling with that hand after 4♣ P P is nutso, that is not even close. 4333, seriously?? So the hand with 7 tricks and a void has to pass, but the balanced hand with 3 or 4 tricks is bidding? Good grief! Sorry I know I'm going nuts here, but doubling with that hand at the 4 level?

Agree.

[the hog]

I wonder what David Burn's comment would be. he is possibly the best player to post in these forums with the possible exception of Fred. I suspect he would pass the H hand.

[whereagles]

elwood913, on Nov 16 2007, 08:38 PM, said:

When he's got AKxx xxx KQx xxx shouldn't he be excited?

A flat 12 is no reason to get happy. Pard has already bid 8 of those points when he overcalled. You do have some extras but nothing to write home about.

[neilkaz]

Great hand here. The ♣ void makes me want to bid 4♥ but call me old and conservative, but I just fear that PD won't cover 3 of my pointed suit losers or that I may also lose a ♥.

Borderline pass for me, noting that sometimes when I bid these, PD makes a slam try and we go set, and that PD is allowed to balance and may do so reasonably aggressively since allowing the opps to play 4♣ undoubled doesn't usually score to well.

Give me AKQ9xxx and I am torn between 4♥ and pass, but would probably bid, and give me AKJxxxxxx (8 carder) and I bid 4♥ for sure.

.. neilkaz ..

[han]

The_Hog, on Nov 16 2007, 06:14 PM, said:

I wonder what David Burn's comment would be. he is possibly the best player to post in these forums with the possible exception of Fred. I suspect he would pass the H hand.

Let me just say one thing:

http://www.google.com/search?q=wbf+people+...ie7&rlz=1I7DKUS

[the hog]

Would you say that to Fred as well??

[han]

Say what?

I googled "wbf people David Burn", that's what I got. Pretty funny I thought.

I wouldn't google Fred.

[lilboyman]

It is very important to discuss this situation with partner before it comes up. I have played with people who prefer to bid with this type of hand and others who would never bid with this hand. Partner must know whether you make lightweight overcalls with 7 loser hands or if you promise a stronger hand so that partner can make intelligent bidding decisions.