[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     1♠
 Pass  2♣    Pass  2♠
 Pass  3♦    Pass  4♠
 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♣
 Pass  6♠    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

2 clubs established game force

5 clubs 0 or 3 key cards

opinions on the 4NT bid?

[mikeh]

idiotic

Your holding in hearts is xxx. Just how many controls is that?

Partner's 2♠ bid denied solid spades with as much as the ♥A. His 4♠ promised a good 7+ suit... if it was AKQ then he shouldn't have the ♥A.

AKQxxxx Qx xx Kx is arguably too good for the sequence, and you are off the first two tricks when, surprise, they lead the unbid suit.

If you want to move over 4♠, try cue-bidding. No sane partner would take 5♣ as an attempt to play 5♣.


You will, of course, then end up in 5♠ when he, not surprisingly, holds AK109xxx Jxx x Kx... at least the good news is that you may go down 2, losing only a couple of imps to those in game.

There are times when 4N is okay despite having a wide open suit, that neither partner has control-bid, but they are hands where you know that your side has so many hcp that logic dictates that partner has at least the King.

Otherwise, using 4N with xx or equivalent in a non-controlled side suit is idiotic.

The fact that so many players do it is a sad reflection of the level of ability in so many players, not an indication that it is a good or even acceptable call.

[mikeh]

sceptic, on Nov 14 2007, 06:06 PM, said:

pard would bid 5!H if they had 2 controls and a Q of trumps so I then shut at out 5 spades (well at least that was my thinking) as I felt if they can bid 4 spades on their own the J is worth something it did not leave much else for p but to have a heart control maybe if I was unlucky AKQ!S and k!C

I thought 50/50 he had k!H or K!C

maybe 5 !C is a way forward, I did not think it was idiotic, I was not sure  that shutting up at 4 spades was the best option, to me 4 spades is what everyone else would bid

Think about your answer.

Let's give him AKQ10xxx xxx x Kx or AKQ10xxx Kx Jx xx or AQ1098xx AQx xx x

or AQ109xxx Axx xx x

You bid 4N. He bids 5♠ with all 3 hands.

Your guess... not 'your bid'.... your guess

You may already be too high. You may be virtually cold for slam.

And you have NO idea what is going on.

That should tell you that bidding 4N is idiotic.

BTW, I don't know any player who has not made a call that they would call idiotic. Look at Frances... she has a thread going in which she calls a bid she made 'stupid, stupid, stupid' and she is one of the best players in the forum! So my calling 4N an idiotic bid is not intended to call you an idiot. If I had to pay money everytime I've made an idiotic bid, I'd be a poor man today

A great rule for those who overuse 4N is: NEVER bid 4N if, after receiving any possible response, you don't know what to do next.

That will automatically stop you from bidding 4N with Qxx or xxx or xx, etc, in any suit not yet control bid by partner, because, if your side is off an Ace, you CANNOT know whether the opps can cash two (or more) winners in the suit. Since you CANNOT know that, you cannot know what to do. If partner has the King, you make slam. While if you hold xxx or Qxx, you may be off the 1st 3 tricks, and be too high already.

BTW, I would happily pass 4♠ with your hand. I would assume that there is no way we have solid spades and the ♥A. We MIGHT have AKQxxxx Kx xx xx, and slam is not bad, but he is as likely to hold a hand that has no 5-level safety.