[TAXI]

Hi all. I don't normally play SAYC. However, it is the most common bidding system in US, so I have to learn it well to be able to play with majority (I live in US now). I am pretty clear with most of the openings and responses, but I do have few questions.

1) my partner 1cl/d/h - I hold 5 cards in Spades and 11-12hcp. What is my bid? According to the system it's 1sp. However, 1sp only shows 4 cards. And 2 spades invites into a Slam (at least that's what all websites where I found SAYC state). So what is the best bid to describe my hand?

2) Same situation, only I have 13-14hcp. Does it make any difference? If not, how strong do I need to be to make a diff. and how should I respond?

3) 1cl - 2cl - 5+ Clubs weak hand (5(6) - 10chp)?

4) 1d - 2d - 4+ Diamonds with same strength as in 3)? Or is it 5+ in Diamonds as well? (found 1 website where it said that 1d - 2 d is 4+).



Thank you in advance.

[awm]

On (1) and (2), your bid is 1♠. Keep in mind that in SAYC (and most modern systems), a new suit response is forcing one round. So partner will never pass you in 1♠. Your plan is to continue by inviting with 11-12 points or bidding a game with 13-14 after partner's next call. Sometimes partner even raises spades! If partner rebids 1NT, this is a good hand for new minor forcing, which is a very popular convention but not technically part of SAYC. Without new minor forcing, holding 13-14 points you should jump to three of the unbid minor over 1NT to create a force and give partner the opportunity to show three-card support for spades. Holding 11-12 points you will bid 2NT next, but partner has the chance to bid 3♠ with a maximum along the way to game.

On (3) and (4), bidding two of a minor is a natural, weak raise. Usually you don't want to play in a seven card fit in a minor suit (1NT is usually better). In SAYC, you normally open 1♣ with 3-3 in the minors, so a 1♦ opening is almost always four or more diamonds (the only exception is 4♠-4♥-3♦-2♣ exactly). So it's fairly safe to raise 1♦ to 2♦ holding only four card support, whereas raising 1♣ to 2♣ probably should be five. Another point is that there are some awkward hands with four cards in partner's minor and five in the other minor. Over 1♣, it's easy to bid 1♦ with this hand. Over 1♦, you don't really want to bid 1NT (especially if you have singleton in a major) and 2♣ would show a very good hand. So you practically have to bid 2♦ with this.

[ArtK78]

TAXI, on Oct 21 2007, 09:55 PM, said:

Hi all. I don't normally play SAYC. However, it is the most common bidding system in US, so I have to learn it well to be able to play with majority (I live in US now).

No it is not. In fact, virtually no one plays it.

SAYC (Standard American Yellow Card) is a stripped down version of what has come to be known as Standard American. It was invented by the ACBL to provide an easy structure for pick-up partnerships at tournaments.

It only became common when online bridge tournaments started including an SAYC convention card among the convention cards provided by the system. I know that I never played "SAYC" until I played with some pickup partners online.

Now it seems to have become common practice online to refer to Standard American as SAYC. It is not.

[TAXI]

Thank you very much. 1 more thing, what about: in 2) 1cl - 1sp - 1NT - 3Sp? Showing 5+ in spades and strength. Good or not so much?

[TAXI]

ArtK78, on Oct 21 2007, 10:28 PM, said:

TAXI, on Oct 21 2007, 09:55 PM, said:

Hi all. I don't normally play SAYC. However, it is the most common bidding system in US, so I have to learn it well to be able to play with majority (I live in US now).

No it is not. In fact, virtually no one plays it.

SAYC (Standard American Yellow Card) is a stripped down version of what has come to be known as Standard American. It was invented by the ACBL to provide an easy structure for pick-up partnerships at tournaments.

It only became common when online bridge tournaments started including an SAYC convention card among the convention cards provided by the system. I know that I never played "SAYC" until I played with some pickup partners online.

Now it seems to have become common practice online to refer to Standard American as SAYC. It is not.

Thx for your comment. The thing is that I am going to bridge club on Monday, for the 1st time I might add. And normally I play a variation of French Standard because most of the time I play on a Russian server (I am Russian) and French Standard is very popular there. However, not too many ppl play it here. When I spoke to the club "manager" on the phone he said that I'll be fine with SAYC. So that's what I am aiming for now. 1s I'll find some1 I will be willing to play all the time and that person will be willing to play with me we can bid whatever works best for us. For now though SAYC seems to be the way to go.

[awm]

The American style is usually to try not to rebid five card suits (there are some exceptions when no other bid is remotely descriptive). I think this differs from the style in some parts of Europe.

So 1m-1♠-1nt-3♠ would be invitational with six spades. It is possible to miss a 5-3 spade fit here, in exchange for not having to play a 5-2 fit at the three-level.

[TAXI]

Yeah, I was thinking the same. A bit unusual for me based on what I usually play. Just have to get used to it. Thank you very much for all your help. Just 1 last question: do you think some other well known! system is better than SAYC. So far I only saw 2 well known systems in US: SAYC and 2/1. Can you say that 1 is better than the other 1 or is it just a matter of preference?

[the hog]

2/1 is better than sayc. Polish club is better than either of the aforementioned, but not many US players play it.

[TAXI]

I know PC somewhat, played it few times a while back. It will take some time for me to remember it, but I think it is a good system. You r right though, that's exactly my problem. I want to play something that ppl in any bridge club would know... not PC unfortunatelly.

[TAXI]

but u say that 2/1 is better? Maybe I should play that instead.

[Mbodell]

TAXI, on Oct 21 2007, 09:55 PM, said:

1) my partner 1cl/d/h - I hold 5 cards in Spades and 11-12hcp. What is my bid? According to the system it's 1sp. However, 1sp only shows 4 cards. And 2 spades invites into a Slam (at least that's what all websites where I found SAYC state). So what is the best bid to describe my hand?

Assuming you are an unpassed hand, then as others mention you bid 1♠. If partner continues with 1NT then partner is showing 12-14 balanced without 4 spades. Now your bidding depends a little on your shape and preferences. With 5-4 or 5-5 you can just bid your other suit at the 2 level and partner will know you are unbalanced and not bare minimum and will have a chance to support spades with 3 card support again.

If you are 5332 you have to choose between pass, 2NT, 3NT (if you decide you are fairly balanced opposite balanced and you belong in NT), OR 2 of a minor even though you only have 3 cards in the minor if you want to keep exploring the possibility of a 5-3 fit.

Generally a direct rebid of your suit promises 6+.

If you had been a passed hand, then you could offer 2♠ over 1m with 5♠ and 10+ points.

[TAXI]

OK, this makes sense, especially 2♠ after pass. If I didn't pass it's a bit hard to get that 5-3 fit. NT seems way easier to achieve, yet not always right. If the bidding is 1[D] - 1♠ - 1NT - 2♣ (assuming I have 5♠ 4♣) - it still doesn't promise 5♠. In the case where my partner has 4333 he'll have to say 2NT (right?) and 4Sp is unachievable.

[TAXI]

Some1 on a different forum just gave me an interesting idea. Gadget will work in this case nicely. I've never used it before but it would seem that with SAYC it will resolve a problem of 5-card-suit invite. Unless some1 can say something against using Gadget I think I will look into it and go from there... Thank you all again.

[Mbodell]

TAXI, on Oct 21 2007, 11:15 PM, said:

I know PC somewhat, played it few times a while back. It will take some time for me to remember it, but I think it is a good system. You r right though, that's exactly my problem. I want to play something that ppl in any bridge club would know... not PC unfortunatelly.

It may depend on where you play in the US as there are likely regional differences but my swag would be that in a US club with a pick up partner the chances that partner "knows" the systems (not necessarily the same as the frequency that various people play the same system since people may know multiple systems) are about the following:

SA w/ strong NT => 99%
2/1 w/ strong NT => 50%
SA w/ weak NT => 40%
2/1 w/ weak NT => 35%
4cM/ACOL => 5%
Precision => 5%
Anything else => <5%

Although, with all of these I'm assuming a generous definition of "knows" since many players will think they know the system but not agree if various bids/conventions are in the system.

[TAXI]

Yeah, unfortunately. But then again, it's just a pickup game. As long as we can agree on basics and hopefully on carding, we should be fine. If it's something more serious my expectations, and hopefully every1 else's, would be much higher.

[Mbodell]

TAXI, on Oct 21 2007, 11:35 PM, said:

OK, this makes sense, especially 2♠ after pass. If I didn't pass it's a bit hard to get that 5-3 fit. NT seems way easier to achieve, yet not always right. If the bidding is 1[D] - 1♠ - 1NT - 2♣ (assuming I have 5♠ 4♣) - it still doesn't promise 5♠. In the case where my partner has 4333 he'll have to say 2NT (right?) and 4Sp is unachievable.

1♦-1♠-1NT-2♣

Does it promise 5 spades? - no. Does it very often have 5 spades, yes. If you only had 4 spades what were your choices... If you had 5+ clubs and 10+ points you could bid 2♣, although some styles would suppress the 5 card suit I don't think that is the standard SA style. If you had 5+ clubs and <10 points you would bid your 4 card spades and then over 1NT you would pass if you were more or less balanced or semi-balanced but could bid clubs with a long unbalanced weak hand (with a strong unbalanced hand with spades as good or better than clubs you'd bid 3♣ over the 1NT bid).

But partner is free to bid 2♠ over your bid even if you might not have 5♠. This is because with just 4♠ you can correct back to NT. (It is debatable to me that your partner should show all 3 card support hands because some 4333 hands might actually play better in NT than in the 5-3 spade fit). So, in general, in this sequence you don't risk missing the 5-3 spade fit.

[TAXI]

Well, my p can't really bid 2sp on my 1sp. In case of 1♦ - 1♠ - 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 2♠ bid can be 4 spades (or can it? can my p say 1NT with 4 sp and balanced weak hand not to go to the 2nd lvl or should he show me his fit no matter what?)

[Mbodell]

TAXI, on Oct 22 2007, 12:09 AM, said:

Well, my p can't really bid 2sp on my 1sp. In case of 1♦ - 1♠ - 1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 2♠ bid can be 4 spades (or can it? can my p say 1NT with 4 sp and balanced weak hand not to go to the 2nd lvl or should he show me his fit no matter what?)

Most people play support with support and thus will bid 1♦-1♠-2♠ with a 12-14 card hand with 4 spades regardless of if it was 4=1=5=3 or 4=3=4=2 or 4=4=3=2 or 4=3=3=3 (although most people would open 1♣ with 4=3=3=3).

So 1♦-1♠-1NT-2♣-2♠ does indeed show exactly 3 card support for most people.

[TAXI]

Got it. Thank you evry much.

[helene_t]

The_Hog, on Oct 22 2007, 06:09 AM, said:

Polish club is better than either of the aforementioned, but not many US players play it.

Rubish. PC sucks. I only play it to please Gerben, Ewa, Elenka, Stan and a few other partners. Anybody who thinks PC is better than some other standard system is a low-grade moron and deserves to play as a sub with a self-rated expert in a non-psyche playing-TD tourney

Disclaimer: I only wrote this because Han told me that I should make such posts on occasion, it will make me feel good. Let's see if it works