[matmat]

sylad, on Oct 16 2007, 04:49 PM, said:

Anyway:
IF, you (or anyone) should feel strongly about something thats not right in this world, why hide when you finally in the limlight?

see, there are certain individuals whose sensibility is only offended if the sign held up does not agree with their particular political/cultural/ethical viewpoint. I am almost willing to bet that those who are so up in arms about this and claiming that "no sign is appropriate" would be patting the women on the back had the sign said "bush is the greatest president ever."

[Walddk]

matmat, on Oct 17 2007, 12:52 AM, said:

sylad, on Oct 16 2007, 04:49 PM, said:

Anyway:
IF, you (or anyone) should feel strongly about something thats not right in this world, why hide when you finally in the limlight?

see, there are certain individuals whose sensibility is only offended if the sign held up does not agree with their particular political/cultural/ethical viewpoint. I am almost willing to bet that those who are so up in arms about this and claiming that "no sign is appropriate" would be patting the women on the back had the sign said "bush is the greatest president ever."

Just as well you wrote "almost willing", because you would lose that bet against me. No sign is appropriate, not even "Hi Mum, send more money".

Roland

[the hog]

"Just as well you wrote "almost willing", because you would lose that bet against me. No sign is appropriate, not even "Hi Mum, send more money"."

Perhaps it was just as inappropriate to have started this debate in a thread purporting to congratulate Harald and Norway and hijacking the whole intent of that aforesaid thread? Somewhat insulting, don't you think?

[fred]

matmat, on Oct 16 2007, 10:52 PM, said:

I am almost willing to bet that those who are so up in arms about this and claiming that "no sign is appropriate" would be patting the women on the back had the sign said "bush is the greatest president ever."

Before you make that bet you might want to do some careful rereading.

Many of the people in the "no signs are appropriate" camp have explictly said that they agree with the political sentiment that was expressed.

No doubt at least some of those in this camp who choose to keep their views of Bush to themselves don't like him either (we can bet if you want).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Walddk]

The_Hog, on Oct 17 2007, 01:10 AM, said:

Perhaps it was just as inappropriate to have started this debate in a thread purporting to congratulate Harald and Norway and hijacking the whole intent of that aforesaid thread? Somewhat insulting, don't you think?

Harald, Fred and I are friends in real life, so trust me, I would never dream of insulting any of them. I actually started the initial thread by congratulating Harald and bridge in Norway in general.

Yes, I should have started the thread in another forum; my fault. Eventually, it was moved to the Water Cooler. Fine. And I don't think Harald is offended in any way. I don't think Fred is either, and he was the one who started the thread.

Funny how some people think it's their duty to be offended on other peoples' behalf.

Roland

[fifee]

Jlall, on Oct 13 2007, 05:14 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Oct 13 2007, 05:06 PM, said:

Hi Justin

I beg to disagree:  If my team were to win a world championship, I would view it as being about "my team".  I couldn't care less about my country or my federation.

You are a representative of your federation. When you win the trials you do not automatically get to go, you have to be approved by your federation to go. They then pay at least some of your bills. Regardless of how you feel about your federation you are still representing them, they are still doing you some favors, and you have to play by their rules.

Let's put it in another perspective. What would you think if a USA team won an Olympic medal and on the podium, held up this sign. Completely inappropriate for me and the same for a World Bridge Federation sponsored World Championship.

I certainly sympathize with this team and the motivation behind the sign. They had probably discussed politics with many over the past weeks and felt compelled to do what they did.

I think the best solution is for the organizations who sponsor these events to simply put in place directives that their podium will not be used as a political forum.

Patricia Anderson

[geller]

Quote

Funny how some people think it's their duty to be offended on other peoples' behalf.

We call them "concern trolls."

[han]

Walddk, on Oct 16 2007, 06:00 PM, said:

No sign is appropriate, not even "Hi Mum, send more money".

Roland

Do you really mean that?

What if the father of one of the players had just died, and the player had held a sign saying "this one is for you dad"? Would you have called that a scandal as well, and would you have called out for punishment?

[ralph23]

Walddk, on Oct 16 2007, 07:24 PM, said:

Funny how some people think it's their duty to be offended on other peoples' behalf.

Roland

Didn't you know, Roland, that being offended is the new empowerment of 21st century America? Take offense at everything !!

A nice side-effect is numbing people to those things that truly are offensive. For if everything's offensive, nothing is !!

[ralph23]

geller, on Oct 16 2007, 08:14 PM, said:

Quote

Funny how some people think it's their duty to be offended on other peoples' behalf.

We call them "concern trolls."

That is priceless, thanks lol.

[the hog]

Hardly! Some people have manners; others haven't.

[kenberg]

matmat, on Oct 16 2007, 05:52 PM, said:

sylad, on Oct 16 2007, 04:49 PM, said:

Anyway:
IF, you (or anyone) should feel strongly about something thats not right in this world, why hide when you finally in the limlight?

see, there are certain individuals whose sensibility is only offended if the sign held up does not agree with their particular political/cultural/ethical viewpoint. I am almost willing to bet that those who are so up in arms about this and claiming that "no sign is appropriate" would be patting the women on the back had the sign said "bush is the greatest president ever."

I don't much care for the display, but if the women held up a sign that said "Bush is the greatest president ever" I would find the obvious sarcasm somewhat amusing. I didn't vote for Bush either but I doubt even my wife much cares. I am sure no one else does.


I really doubt much will come of this whole thing, it hardly seems like a major scandal. Here is a historical note however for anyone interested. I haven't checked but I think I have my facts about right.

When I was a grad student in 1966 the International Congress of Mathematics was held in Moscow. Steve Smale was one of the Fields Medal Winners (there is no Nobel Prize in Math, this is a rough equivalent in prestige). He decided to take this opportunity to lambast the US for Viet Nam. His right? Sure. But actions have consequences. Senators who finance mathematics (he had a huge grant supporting many people) were not amused by someone standing up in Moscow and denouncing the hand that feeds him. Speaking out in the US, as many did, would not have provoked anything like the same reaction. People get ticked when someone goes off to another country and uses the opportunity to grab some headlines. Sometimes the people who get ticked have the power to make their displeasure felt.

If a person feels that something really must be said then sure, you say it, you pay the price, and just maybe you effect change. Smale did indeed feel strongly: He led a group of graduate students to lie down on railroad tracks to stop the passage of a troop train. He didn't however feel so strongly that he stayed on the tracks when the train didn't stop.

My guess, and I admit it is a guess, is that this Bush placard was closer to a fun stunt than to a deep expression of moral outrage. But of course that's always the way it is with these things. A painter sets fire to an American flag. Is he making a political statement or trying to sell some paintings? Who knows? And who cares?

So no, I don't think Mr. Bush is the greatest president ever. I'll be happy to give you my opinions on this and many other things after a few beers. If someone ever gives me a trophy, I'll skip the beers and I'll say thank you.


Cut to the chase: Of course people have a right, sometimes a duty, to speak out. I and others have a right to assess their judgment when they do so.

[Winstonm]

If they had just changed the sign to I DIDN"T VOTE FOR CHENEY no one would be complaining.

[TimG]

matmat, on Oct 16 2007, 05:52 PM, said:

I am almost willing to bet that those who are so up in arms about this and claiming that "no sign is appropriate" would be patting the women on the back had the sign said "bush is the greatest president ever."

I expect most who objected would have had no problem if any of the women had worn a necklace with a religious symbol on it (a symbol that was large enough to be recognizable by the audience).

Nor do I think most of them would have had a problem if one of them wore a yellow ribbon (support for troops) or a pink ribbon (support for a cure for breast cancer) or the like.

[Elianna]

TimG, on Oct 16 2007, 07:57 PM, said:

matmat, on Oct 16 2007, 05:52 PM, said:

I am almost willing to bet that those who are so up in arms about this and claiming that "no sign is appropriate" would be patting the women on the back had the sign said "bush is the greatest president ever."

I expect most who objected would have had no problem if any of the women had worn a necklace with a religious symbol on it (a symbol that was large enough to be recognizable by the audience).

Nor do I think most of them would have had a problem if one of them wore a yellow ribbon (support for troops) or a pink ribbon (support for a cure for breast cancer) or the like.

Nor would I have minded if they wore a ribbon whose meaning was anti-Bush. There is a difference between wearing a subtle symbol as opposed to carrying a sign.

Or even a small pin that's anti-Bush. I guess the size matters to me.

In general, I basically agree who were saying that this was innapropriate. Not necessarily saying that they should be sanctioned, but that I found it inappropriate, but I wasn't there personally. I can't imagine what goes through the mind of someone who's just played a gruelling bridge tournament, and probably had to explain/apologize for their country to everyone they met.

I have lots of sympathy. I've definitely met people who decide they need to lecture me about the politics of my countries of citizenship.

Off-topic: I just don't get that need. It's actually funny, because one of those countries, I know nothing about, another I completely disagree with most of the people in power (on both sides), and the third I'm so conflicted emotionally, that I would never get in a debate with anyone about. And the only one that I've ever even gotten to vote in was the second!

[fred]

Elianna, on Oct 17 2007, 04:26 AM, said:

I can't imagine what goes through the mind of someone who's just played a gruelling bridge tournament, and probably had to explain/apologize for their country to everyone they met.

This seems to be a widely-held misconception.

I have been to many international bridge tournaments in many countries and I don't recall any player ever confronting another player and putting them in a position where they had to apologize for or explain the actions of their country.

That is one of the nice things about these tournaments. (Almost) everyone leaves their politics at home. People accept each other for who they are. Where they are from does not come into play.

In most places I have been it is not much different on the street. Regardless of what they may think of your country, most natives would not even think about taking it out on you. Making individual guests feel welcome regardless of where they are from seems to be all but universal in my experience.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[bendare]

fred, on Oct 16 2007, 11:43 PM, said:

[
I have been to many international bridge tournaments in many countries and I don't recall any player ever confronting another player and putting them in a position where they had to apologize for or explain the actions of their country.

That is one of the nice things about these tournaments. (Almost) everyone leaves their politics at home. People accept each other for who they are. Where they are from does not come into play.

In most places I have been it is not much different on the street. Regardless of what they may think of your country, most natives would not even think about taking it out on you. Making individual guests feel welcome regardless of where they are from seems to be all but universal in my experience.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Exactly, Fred!

Furthermore, the audience these women were "playing to" was ( I assume), primarily fellow participants in these World Championships. How can anyone possibly imagine that these World Class bridge players were putting these women in a position to have to apologize or explain the actions of their country's government? Yet, some are suggesting they may have been met with this at every turn.

I don't think so! Even if so ( highly improbable), that would not justify undignified and classless behavior on their part.

Bendare

[helene_t]

fred, on Oct 17 2007, 06:43 AM, said:

I have been to many international bridge tournaments in many countries and I don't recall any player ever confronting another player and putting them in a position where they had to apologize for or explain the actions of their country.
[......]
In most places I have been it is not much different on the street. Regardless of what they may think of your country, most natives would not even think about taking it out on you.

I'm surprised to hear this. Han said that even he (a non-American) has to "explain". I've heard that from many Americans as well.

I've had a clerk at a Dutch government office harassing me because he was annoyed with the Danes who always cause troubles in the EU (just after the Danish referendum on the European Monetary Union). More often, people's reactions are positive. Some congratulate me with the courage "we" showed by resisting the pressure from Brussels. As a pro-European, I'm obviously annoyed. OK, most natives don't blame the behaivour of the Danish government or a Danish referendum on me, but a significant number do.

Maybe your experiences are different from mine because you frequent people with better social skills. I must say that such incidents have become rarer in recent years, and are more likely to happen with random converation partners I meet in the tram than with peers at a conference.

[Gerben42]

I doubt that the US players have been in many political discussions in Shanghai. More likely they talk about

* bridge hands
* bridge hands
* did I mention bridge hands?



More seriously, I've noticed the same thing even when the subject is not bridge.

[HedyG]

fred, on Oct 16 2007, 11:43 PM, said:

Elianna, on Oct 17 2007, 04:26 AM, said:

I can't imagine what goes through the mind of someone who's just played a gruelling bridge tournament, and probably had to explain/apologize for their country to everyone they met.

This seems to be a widely-held misconception.

I have been to many international bridge tournaments in many countries and I don't recall any player ever confronting another player and putting them in a position where they had to apologize for or explain the actions of their country.

That is one of the nice things about these tournaments. (Almost) everyone leaves their politics at home. People accept each other for who they are. Where they are from does not come into play.

In most places I have been it is not much different on the street. Regardless of what they may think of your country, most natives would not even think about taking it out on you. Making individual guests feel welcome regardless of where they are from seems to be all but universal in my experience.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

i couldnt agree more with Fred!
in none of the international events i have been to has anybody ever started political discussions nor discussed religious or racial differences!
its one of the nicest things in taking part! we are all there as bridgeplayers and not as somebody whose governement did something somebody else disagrees with or whose religion or colour is different!
as Sabine Auken said so correctly: "we are all one big bridge-family" and never do you feel it more than at one of these events.