[helene_t]

jocdelevat, on Oct 19 2007, 07:02 AM, said:

I supose after this incident WBF or the bridge organization for each country will require a special comitee to take actions against players who doesn't respect the new law " no signs are apropriate" . Im sure some posters here who was making fun of creating a Committee will be happy to hear.

Assuming that the USBF board of directors will prove unable to deal with this incident to the satisfaction of the bridge community (the vast majority of which will never hear about the incident anyway). Judging from the comments from others I see no reason to make that assumption.

But in case the WBF is short of meeting its obligation with regards to the number of new committees, I nominate Dave for the alarm-clock-power-backup-approval committee.

[rona_]

mrdct, on Oct 19 2007, 06:05 AM, said:

mike777, on Oct 18 2007, 08:24 PM, said:

As for the 16 minute tardy player on the USA team, what happened was a Temporary Power Outage, which somehow caused an alarm clock to falsely convince the player that it was actually about 40 minutes or so earlier than it actually was.

No sympathy from me.

If I was going to take a nap between segments of a semi-final of a world championship I would have at least three power-independent alarm clocks set plus a wake-up call booked with main reception.

Perhaps some team rules around being in the playing area at least 15 minutes before the scheduled start time might have helped as when the player was identified as missing with 10 minutes before session time, the npc could have got on the phone to her.

Just to make perfectly sure you wake up on time, Don't leave home without it

[helene_t]

It reminds me of a classmate of mine who solved the same problem by connecting his alarm clock to a string-pull device that pulled off his quilt so that he got cold and had to get up.

[Walddk]

Even better is to attach the string to a bucket full of water. Ice cold preferably The advantage is that when you're late, you've had your shower already

Roland

[mrdct]

Walddk, on Oct 19 2007, 03:32 AM, said:

I also think Dave (mrdct) exaggerates.

OK. Fair call - but with 100% truthfulness when I need to wake up for something important I do set the alarm on both my phone and my bedside alarm clock just in case one of them doesn't work.

In the unlikely event that I ever make it to the semi-final of a World Championship, I promise on my mother's grave that I will have at least three power-independent alarm clocks set before each session!

[jikl]

Trust me on this, I knew Dave from my youth days. He is telling the truth, he would.

Sean

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Oct 19 2007, 04:24 AM, said:

There apparently already is a movement among some of our ACBL Board of Directors to make serious cuts in this funding.  They do not see the benefit of the ACBL subsidizing our representatives in World competition.  It is feared by those who do see the benefit, that some will use the China Venice Idiot (wow, my Word editor automatically changes b-u-s-h to i-d-i-o-t, does yours?) Bashing Incident as an EXCUSE to kill the funding for our teams.  One such director is quoted as declaring that if any American says anything against our country (and he obviously believes this was an anti-American statement) on foreign soil is grounds for Treason.

Am I suposed to be surprised that the ACBL BoD includes a bunch of idiots? That's been patently obvious for generations.

Its a pretty well known fact that a vocal minority within the ACBL BoD is looking for any excuse to several all ties between the ACBL and the WBF. I don't have any factual information about what motivates these individuals. My assumption is that they are a bunch of "Red State" idiots who have somehow confused the World Bridge Federation with the New World Order. (Perhaps all those funds for Junior Camp are being siphoned away for Black Helicopters and UN sanctioned "Re-Education" camps...) I take comfort in the fact that idiots like this one are over-reacting in such a dramatic fashion.

In short: I really don't care what the extremists think. However, if anyone can point out to any changes at the margin, that might be a bit more interesting.

I still have high hopes that this whole incident can be swept under the carpet. I really don't think that airing all of the dirty linen serves anyone other than the whack jobs and the misogynists... (Its sad that some people feel the need to stoke up the fire and try to turn a minor incident into a cause)

One thing that this does expose is some of the organizational problems facing bridge in the United States.

1. From an organization perspective, members of the ACBL BoD shouldn't have any say in the behaviour of a USBF team. In theory, the ACBL and the USBF should be separate and distinct entities and shouldn't be meddling in one another's affairs. In practice, the whole relationship between the two groups seems quite byzantine. For example, I don't know the extent to which International Funds games in the ACBL are used to subsidize USBF teams. Furthermore, does any of this money get remitted to the Canandians? (Life might get a lot easier if the Canadians did secede from the ACBL...)

2. Associated with this, I don't think that the average ACBL member actually feels any empathy for members of the US international teams. My impression is that players flock to International Fund games, Charity events, and the like because of the lure of extra special masterpoints. (I don't think any of them give a rat's ass for the actual cause being sponsored)

[Elianna]

hrothgar, on Oct 19 2007, 04:40 AM, said:

My impression is that players folk to International Fund games, Charity events, and the like because of the lure of extra special masterpoints. (I don't think any of them give a rat's ass for the actual cause being sponsored)

In my local clubs, they avoid them, because of the extra cost.

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Oct 19 2007, 02:40 PM, said:

mike777, on Oct 19 2007, 04:24 AM, said:

There apparently already is a movement among some of our ACBL Board of Directors to make serious cuts in this funding.  They do not see the benefit of the ACBL subsidizing our representatives in World competition.  It is feared by those who do see the benefit, that some will use the China Venice Idiot (wow, my Word editor automatically changes b-u-s-h to i-d-i-o-t, does yours?) Bashing Incident as an EXCUSE to kill the funding for our teams.  One such director is quoted as declaring that if any American says anything against our country (and he obviously believes this was an anti-American statement) on foreign soil is grounds for Treason.

Am I suposed to be surprised that the ACBL BoD includes a bunch of idiots? That's been patently obvious for generations.

Its a pretty well known fact that a vocal minority within the ACBL BoD is looking for any excuse to several all ties between the ACBL and the WBF. I don't have any factual information about what motivates these individuals. My assumption is that they are a bunch of "Red State" idiots who have somehow confused the World Bridge Federation with the New World Order. (Perhaps all those funds for Junior Camp are being siphoned away for Black Helicopters and UN sanctioned "Re-Education" camps...) I take comfort in the fact that idiots like this one are over-reacting in such a dramatic fashion.

In short: I really don't care what the extremists think. However, if anyone can point out to any changes at the margin, that might be a bit more interesting.

I still have high hopes that this whole incident can be swept under the carpet. I really don't think that airing all of the dirty linen serves anyone other than the whack jobs and the misogynists... (Its sad that some people feel the need to stoke up the fire and try to turn a minor incident into a cause)

One thing that this does expose is some of the organizational problems facing bridge in the United States.

1. From an organization perspective, members of the ACBL BoD shouldn't have any say in the behaviour of a USBF team. In theory, the ACBL and the USBF should be separate and distinct entities and shouldn't be meddling in one another's affairs. In practice, the whole relationship between the two groups seems quite byzantine. For example, I don't know the extent to which International Funds games in the ACBL are used to subsidize USBF teams. Furthermore, does any of this money get remitted to the Canandians? (Life might get a lot easier if the Canadians did secede from the ACBL...)

2. Associated with this, I don't think that the average ACBL member actually feels any empathy for members of the US international teams. My impression is that players folk to International Fund games, Charity events, and the like because of the lure of extra special masterpoints. (I don't think any of them give a rat's ass for the actual cause being sponsored)

I think you should reread your post and edit, Richard. If I understand your intentions correctly, you sometimes use ACBL when you mean USBF. This decision (letter of regret) was made by the USBF Board of Directors.

Until now I can't see that the ACBL has been involved at all.

Speaking of polarisation. What a difference between Richard's "idiots" and Fred's "... so far the USBF BOD is handling this well (no surprise to me given who is on the Board)".

In my view it's a bit harsh to call people "idiots" just because you disagree with a decision.

Roland

[helene_t]

Ahem .... Mike777 talked about ACBL. Richard quoted Mike's post.

[Walddk]

helene_t, on Oct 19 2007, 03:46 PM, said:

Ahem .... Mike777 talked about ACBL. Richard quoted Mike's post.

Yes, 8 lines. The rest is Richard's and he is the one who mix up ACBL and USBF and call the BOD "a bunch of idiots".

Roland

[fred]

hrothgar, on Oct 19 2007, 12:40 PM, said:

In short:  I really don't care what the extremists think.

That's a strange thing for someone who has been known to have extreme views to say

Maybe the ACBL BOD doesn't care what you think either, but I suspect that some of them would not appreciate being referred to as "idiots" in a public forum, especially by someone who admits that he does not know the motivations behind some of the behavior that he considers to be idiotic.

Of course it is your right to decide what you think it is idiotic and who you think is an idiot. I am sure if we were having a private discussion over a beer I would agree with you in many cases.

But when a post like yours appears I get complaints and sometimes I get blamed (not fair for sure but true). Then I have to decide whether or not I should engage in "censorship" or do nothing. You have seen the outcry whenever we think we have to "censor" anything on Forums. Perhaps you do not know that when we refuse to censor we piss people off as well. It is yet another no-win situation.

It is even worse when some of the people in question have the ability to hurt BBO if they choose to do so.

So please be a little more careful. It would have certainly been possible for you to make your point without using the word "idiot" (at least 3 times).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[hrothgar]

Walddk, on Oct 19 2007, 04:53 PM, said:

helene_t, on Oct 19 2007, 03:46 PM, said:

Ahem .... Mike777 talked about ACBL. Richard quoted Mike's post.

Yes, 8 lines. The rest is Richard's and he is the one who mix up ACBL and USBF and call the BOD "a bunch of idiots".

Roland

Roland, I didn't mix anything up.

Mike made a post indicating that elements of the ACBL BoD might use this incident to pull funding from International events like:

The World Junior Team Championships
USBF Teams participating in the Bermuda Bowl
Etc...

I responded with a specific post stating my feeling about (elements of) the ACBL BoD. I also questioned an organizational structure in which elements of the ACBL BoD felt obliged to meddle in USBF affairs.

I am well aware of the distinction between the ACBL and the USBF. Perhaps you need to learn how to read more carefully. (Alternatively, perhaps you might like to indicate a specific phrase or clause in which you think that I have confused the ACBL with the USBF or vice versa)

[Walddk]

hrothgar, on Oct 19 2007, 04:24 PM, said:

I am well aware of the distinction between the ACBL and the USBF. Perhaps you need to learn how to read more carefully. (Alternatively, perhaps you might like to indicate a specific phrase or clause in which you think that I have confused the ACBL with the USBF or vice versa)

OK, so I misunderstood your post; sorry about that. I still find it inappropriate to call board members "idiots". You are entitled to disagree with everything they do and don't do, but you can surely find words that are not insulting.

Heaven knows that you and I have different views and disagree on a regular basis, but we don't call each other idiots. You disagree with virtually every decision the ACBL makes, but that doesn't make them idiots.

Roland

[ralph23]

hrothgar, on Oct 19 2007, 08:40 AM, said:

mike777, on Oct 19 2007, 04:24 AM, said:

There apparently already is a movement among some of our ACBL Board of Directors to make serious cuts in this funding.  They do not see the benefit of the ACBL subsidizing our representatives in World competition.  It is feared by those who do see the benefit, that some will use the China Venice Idiot (wow, my Word editor automatically changes b-u-s-h to i-d-i-o-t, does yours?) Bashing Incident as an EXCUSE to kill the funding for our teams.  One such director is quoted as declaring that if any American says anything against our country (and he obviously believes this was an anti-American statement) on foreign soil is grounds for Treason.

Am I suposed to be surprised that the ACBL BoD includes a bunch of idiots? That's been patently obvious for generations.

Wow....Is it like generational sin or something? The Board changes over time, doesn't it?

[jonottawa]

Are you a special education teacher by any chance, Helene? At any rate, you're doing a smashing job in this thread and the other one.

As far as whether little old ladies in Topeka or Boise or Chattanooga ought to be paying extra in order to play bridge so that a gaggle of professional players and well-off clients can have their world championship experience subsidized, I think the answer is no. Is there another sport where mediocre amateurs with no hope of ever becoming more than that are expected to fund the national teams?

Junior bridge is a different story (because juniors are mostly amateurs and it certainly would be an outrage if financial considerations alone prevented a gifted junior from competing in a junior championship.)

[Walddk]

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 05:16 PM, said:

Is there another sport where mediocre amateurs with no hope of ever becoming more than that are expected to fund the national teams?

I don't know how familiar you are with conditions in Europe, but that is exactly how it works. Everyone pays for the elite teams through their membership fees to the respective federations. It doesn't matter if it's football (soccer), handball, basketball, volleyball, ice hockey, field hockey, and of course bridge.

At least in Scandinavia we don't hear significant objections although everyone knows that only a tiny percentage makes it to the national teams.

Denmark had two teams in Shanghai (women and seniors) and they were funded by the 26,000 members of the Danish Bridge Federation.

Roland

[jonottawa]

Walddk, on Oct 19 2007, 03:29 PM, said:

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 05:16 PM, said:

Is there another sport where mediocre amateurs with no hope of ever becoming more than that are expected to fund the national teams?

I don't know how familiar you are with conditions in Europe, but that is exactly how it works. Everyone pays for the elite teams through their membership fees to the respective federations. It doesn't matter if it's football (soccer), handball, basketball, volleyball, ice hockey, field hockey, and of course bridge.

At least in Scandinavia we don't hear significant objections although everyone knows that only a tiny percentage makes it to the national teams.

Denmark had two teams in Shanghai (women and seniors) and they were funded by the 26,000 members of the Danish Bridge Federation.

Roland

And the players on these 'elite' teams are professionals? (I wasn't really referring to Europe (Scandinavia's governments are usually socialist, no?) but that's fine as long as we're comparing apples to apples.)

[Walddk]

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 05:44 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 19 2007, 03:29 PM, said:

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 05:16 PM, said:

Is there another sport where mediocre amateurs with no hope of ever becoming more than that are expected to fund the national teams?

I don't know how familiar you are with conditions in Europe, but that is exactly how it works. Everyone pays for the elite teams through their membership fees to the respective federations. It doesn't matter if it's football (soccer), handball, basketball, volleyball, ice hockey, field hockey, and of course bridge.

At least in Scandinavia we don't hear significant objections although everyone knows that only a tiny percentage makes it to the national teams.

Denmark had two teams in Shanghai (women and seniors) and they were funded by the 26,000 members of the Danish Bridge Federation.

Roland

And the players on these 'elite' teams are professionals? (I wasn't really referring to Europe (Scandinavia's governments are usually socialist, no?) but that's fine as long as we're comparing apples to apples.)

Some are, some are not, but we don't distinguish. The members contribute to the *team*.

As far as governments in Scandinavia are concerned, I think it's fair to say that your knowledge is not world class. Norway has a social democrat prime minister (Jens Stoltenberg), Sweden a conservative (Fredrik Reinfeldt) and Denmark a liberal (Anders Fogh Rasmussen).

Roland

[jonottawa]

Walddk, on Oct 19 2007, 03:52 PM, said:

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 05:44 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 19 2007, 03:29 PM, said:

jonottawa, on Oct 19 2007, 05:16 PM, said:

Is there another sport where mediocre amateurs with no hope of ever becoming more than that are expected to fund the national teams?

I don't know how familiar you are with conditions in Europe, but that is exactly how it works. Everyone pays for the elite teams through their membership fees to the respective federations. It doesn't matter if it's football (soccer), handball, basketball, volleyball, ice hockey, field hockey, and of course bridge.

At least in Scandinavia we don't hear significant objections although everyone knows that only a tiny percentage makes it to the national teams.

Denmark had two teams in Shanghai (women and seniors) and they were funded by the 26,000 members of the Danish Bridge Federation.

Roland

And the players on these 'elite' teams are professionals? (I wasn't really referring to Europe (Scandinavia's governments are usually socialist, no?) but that's fine as long as we're comparing apples to apples.)

Some are, some are not, but we don't distinguish. The members contribute to the *team*.

As far as governments in Scandinavia are concerned, I think it's fair to say that your knowledge is not world class. Norway has a social democrat prime minister (Jens Stoltenberg), Sweden a conservative (Fredrik Reinfeldt) and Denmark a liberal (Anders Fogh Rasmussen).

Roland

Helene, could you please explain to Roland the difference between 'usually' and 'currently'? Thanks.