[badderzboy]

Playing at a local club in the UK.....

LHO opens 1♣ * Alert (well announced as conventional...)

Partner doubles for takeout (edited shows Clubs and some values - double of artificial bid shows suit bid and is NOT alertable in UK )

RHO bids 1 ♥s

Pass from me

LHO bids 4♥s

two passes back to you...

You hold

Scoring: MP

---

You now ask what was the one-club alert and get the response 11-19 says nothing about Clubs!

OK I said - do u open all hands 1 Club then - no it might be the precursor to a strong NT and denies 5 Spades cos we would open 1♠ in that case so we seem to be getting somewhere but getting any info is like pulling teeth....

Then the 1♣ opener (chirps up) adds I've now shown Clubs too as I have supported partner!!!

I decided not to Double as the singleton Club lead looks like it won't work and I flag the 4 ♥s.....

Scoring: MP

---

and taken 2 off...

Does the rudiments of the opps system ring any bells or is it home cooked?

I found the if I support partner I have clubs bit a little bizzarre eg what do u do with support and a lack of clubs...

[matmat]

sounds like the badbridge convention to me. very popular.

[MickyB]

Probably just a badly-described short club system

[helene_t]

And a badly-described t/o double. BTW in one partnership I play dbl of conventional 1♣ openings as showing clubs, but whether it applies to badly-described club openings is hard to say.

[barmar]

BTW, opener should NOT have "chirped up". He's not allowed to correct or clarify his partner's explanation until after the auction is completed. If his side declares he must chirp up before the opening lead, if they defend he must wait until the hand is over. If you think that the misexplanation damaged you, you should call the TD and let him decide how to rectify it.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

Your partner made a takeout doubles with a singleton in an unbid major and 5 cards in the suit opened holding 12HCP?

You held 2461 with KQ10xxx of diamonds and you did not bid after your partner make a takeout double?

The other pair bid strangely, however, your methods also need a great deal of work.

Regards,
Robert

[badderzboy]

The double was takeout orientated but showed Clubs yes - double of an artificial bid showing the bid suit yada yada (apologies for not being more specific) . Our defensive bidding methods are quite adequate

I passed 1♥ to await developments as I expect partner to bid 1♠ if he has long spades / clubs and I wasn't going to excite him yet or push us to 2 level on a misfit if I could help it and lefty was bound to bid something too - I would balance in Diamonds as needs be later in the auction.

I'm a qualified director and its a pretty friendly club so I didn't jump on the old boy who chirped up as his partner looked docilely away , it was well intentioned so I let it slide.

In a friendly manner I sorta suggested they might bring along a written CC as its such an unusual system... ( I know the rudiments of precision / blue club and other short clubs but the 11-19 pretty much everything was a surprise to me lol)

Steve

[helene_t]

badderzboy, on Sep 26 2007, 03:39 PM, said:

The double was takeout orientated but showed Clubs yes - double of an artificial bid showing the bid suit yada yada (apologies for not being more specific) . Our defensive bidding methods are quite adequate

That's an excelent method but you should not call it take-out, then. After all, if opener's p passes, doubler's p is encouraged to pass as well since doubler has clubs, right?

[badderzboy]

Yes Helene,

The double wasn't alerted as in the UK u don't alert a double of an artificial bid if it shows the suit bid as this did - if asked I would explain to opps as showing clubs and values (near opening +) sorry for the poor description.

Additionally my pass over 1♥ denies Clubs as I would raise to level of fit in this auction.

Steve

[jtfanclub]

barmar, on Sep 26 2007, 06:31 AM, said:

BTW, opener should NOT have "chirped up". He's not allowed to correct or clarify his partner's explanation until after the auction is completed.

Blah.

Technically true, however, if you pass, he corrects the explanation, the director is called, and you get to change your bid....

My feeling in these cases is that restoring equity is key. It's very unlikely to do any harm, but it speeds up the game. Kind of like putting your cards away before the auction has actually been passed around.

Not sure what they play, sounds like the hand is one of...
16-19 balanced, which can include 5 hearts, or
11-15, not balanced, no 5 card suits except perhaps clubs.

So 1 diamond is 11-19, not balanced, 5+ diamonds.

Seems workable, I dunno. Wasn't there a 'create your own system' contest where something like this won?

[helene_t]

jtfanclub, on Sep 26 2007, 04:09 PM, said:

barmar, on Sep 26 2007, 06:31 AM, said:

BTW, opener should NOT have "chirped up".  He's not allowed to correct or clarify his partner's explanation until after the auction is completed.

Blah.

Technically true, however, if you pass, he corrects the explanation, the director is called, and you get to change your bid....

My feeling in these cases is that restoring equity is key. It's very unlikely to do any harm, but it speeds up the game. Kind of like putting your cards away before the auction has actually been passed around.

Players putting their bidding cards away too early is one of my pet peeves. I don't think it speeds the game up since you can always find time to grap your bidding cards later, for example while declarer is making up his plan. But it does convey UI ("I assume this double is penalty") and sometimes causes confusing when the auction turns out to continue unexpectedly.

In this particular case it is might be harmless to correct the explanation since responder might know that opener had implied clubs, just failed to tell it. But I think it's a dangerous slippery-slope to diverge from the law in such cases. Once I informed declarer that my p forgot to alert my short club opening. I got a very bad feeling when I saw my p leading a non-club. Of course I could have avoided it by waiting for the lead before I informed declarer, but still it might put her under pressure to continue clubs if my discouraging signal is ambigious, or some such.

[SoTired]

I see nothing wrong with EW bidding, although their explanations were cryptic.

The insane system was played by NS. North's unalerted t/o dbl (then explained as showing clubs??? with 5 clubs to the JT???) with a singleton heart.

Then South's strange pass over 1H.

NS's bidding was totally bizarre

[MickyB]

From the Orange Book -
"( B ) Short, Nebulous, Prepared and Phoney minor openings.
Double of these bids is not alertable if for take-out; alertable otherwise."

So...who knows whether the double is alertable or not! I think those terms are all meant to refer to openings that are either nat or bal (or maybe 4441 with a stiff in the suit opened). It certainly shouldn't be described as "takeout", this implies that you are encouraging partner to bid the other three suits.

I have no problem with opener adding more the the explanation here. I can't see it being an issue unless 4♥ gets doubled and partner runs to 5♣.

And yes, putting away the bidding cards before the opening lead is pointless IMO. The defender not on lead might still have questions to ask, and there are people who can't remember even relatively simple auctions.

[jtfanclub]

helene_t, on Sep 26 2007, 09:18 AM, said:

Players putting their bidding cards away too early is one of my pet peeves.

Lemme rephrase. This is one of those minor things that are annoying but common in clubs. I don't recommend it, by any means, but except in the very rare cases where it causes damage I just don't worry about it.

[barmar]

jtfanclub, on Sep 26 2007, 12:32 PM, said:

helene_t, on Sep 26 2007, 09:18 AM, said:

Players putting their bidding cards away too early is one of my pet peeves.

Lemme rephrase. This is one of those minor things that are annoying but common in clubs. I don't recommend it, by any means, but except in the very rare cases where it causes damage I just don't worry about it.

It's also very dependent on location. From what I've read, in UK tournaments it's normal to leave the bidding cards out until after the opening lead. In the US, though, bidding cards are practically always put away the moment the final pass is made (and a popular way to make that final pass is to simply start putting your cards back in the box -- I do a kind of hybrid, where I show the pass card and then quickly use it to scoop up the cards); the only common exception is after a complicated auction, one of the defenders may ask that they be left out while they ask for explanations.

[skjaeran]

barmar, on Sep 26 2007, 09:46 PM, said:

In the US, though, bidding cards are practically always put away the moment the final pass is made (and a popular way to make that final pass is to simply start putting your cards back in the box -- I do a kind of hybrid, where I show the pass card and then quickly use it to scoop up the cards); the only common exception is after a complicated auction, one of the defenders may ask that they be left out while they ask for explanations.

This used to be standard practise in Norway too. But we had a law change (a footnote to Law 41A) saying that the bidding cards shall remain on the table until the lead has been turned face up. Of course even ten years after this change many still use the old practise.

[helene_t]

Some English players I met were most surprised when I told them that it's allowed in the NL to put your bidding cards back before the opening lead. In Denmark they keep the bidding cards on table until the opening lead has been made. I think it's a good idea.

[blackshoe]

I think it's an excellent idea.

In club games around here (Rochester, NY, USA, so in the ACBL) the usual practice is to put your bidding cards away when you think the auction is over - for example, when somebody bids game. Personally, I find it very annoying - but calling the director would do nothing but get me a reputation for picking nits, so I've given up worrying about it.

[Mbodell]

blackshoe, on Sep 26 2007, 05:27 PM, said:

I think it's an excellent idea.

In club games around here (Rochester, NY, USA, so in the ACBL) the usual practice is to put your bidding cards away when you think the auction is over - for example, when somebody bids game. Personally, I find it very annoying - but calling the director would do nothing but get me a reputation for picking nits, so I've given up worrying about it.

I agree. It annoys me a lot when people tap their cards (or worse pick up their bids) as a pass not in the pass out seat.

It happens all the time when ...-4♥-tap (not pass since I don't want/expect my partner to double in the pass out seat nor expect the opponents to keep bidding) or ...-4♥-pass-tap (not pass since I don't expect the last opponent to double or bid).