[JSilver]

I'd like opinions on whether an alert is appropriate in the following circumstances:

Playing IMP pairs with a regular internet partner (whom I've never met face to face), I held Q9, 532, AKQ75, AJ8 in third chair.  With the opponents silent, partner opened 1C, I bid 1D, and partner bid 1H.  We play 2/1, including fourth suit forcing, but have  never discussed this sequence.  Unsure where the hand belonged, I decided to probe with 2S.  Partner, who held S1084, along with HAKQJ and CKxx, bid 2NT and I raised to 3, ending the auction.  

My RHO, who held SKJ752 and H10984, led the H10, allowing partner to take 11 tricks, whereas a low spade lead would set the contract.  When dummy came down, he complained that 2S should have been alerted.  (He left the table when the hand was over.)  :-[

I didn't alert because (1) we had no agreement about what 2S meant and (2) consequently, I wouldn't know how to explain the bid if asked, since I couldn't tell how partner would interpret it.  What do others think?  Should I have alerted?

[the hog]

"What do others think?  Should I have alerted? "

Probably, but if someone does not know that 4th suit forcing is artificial 99% of the time, ........
Sounds like sour grapes to me because he found a bad lead.

Incidentally your partner should rebid 1NT. His bidding shows 5+C and 4H.

[inquiry]

Yes you should alert or not make the bid...

First, clearly with a doubleton SPADE, regardless of all else, you meant 2SPADES as fourth suit forcing (a lot of less insightful people incorrectly use 1S as fourth suit forcing).

The bid was artificial, as you clearly did not hold spades. And, you had at least a very reasonable expectation that your partner would work out that the bid was fourth suit forcing (it is, afterall standard part of 2/1 system).  Finally, the "alerts" are self-alerts. Thus, I think it is incumbent upon you to alert fouth suit forcing bid, as you expected (hoped?) that partner would act according, or find a differnet bid.

[mink]

My oppinion:

In online bridge you should consider every bid you make as agreed upon, even if you are not quite sure that partner understands it. You should alert if there is the possibility that opps may not understand any important aspect of the bid.

There is no disadvantage with an alert in online bridge, as your partner does not see the alert. If opps consider the alert as superfuous, they will hardly ever complain but simply ignore it.

Karl

[JSilver]

I realize that partner doesn't see the alert.  However, my concern is that if I tell the opponents that 2S is artificial, and partner then bids NT, won't they assume that partner has spades stopped?  Meanwhile, partner may be relying on me for a stopper, and my alert will have served only to deceive the opponents.  :-/

[inquiry]

It is my understand that you ALERT what your bid means. How your partner responds is, for course, out of your control. You meet your requirement. IF you think this is a problem, you could send a private message that this auction hasn't come up in your new partnership, so you are unsure how your partner will reply.

[Rado]

If you intended to bid 2S as 4th suit forcing then you should alert. If you intended to bid as psyche then NO

The quoted situation is not clear and my view is always to alert and to explain as 4SF

Of course bidding pass-pass - 1H on 3 cards as psyche is not alertable
or 1H-pass-1S with 2-3 v=cards in S and H fit also intended to psyche is not alertable

Since BBO is generaly for pleasure and fun, I think psyches are welcomed when establisshed and known partnerships are playing as opponents

[luis]

Wow wow, I strongly disagree with many posters

IMO 2 spades shouldn't be alerted.
Unagreed bids are considered "natural" or "to be interpreted" and don't requiere an alert.

I completely disagree with the players that said that playing online you should alter 2s. Playing online you should alert the same bids you would have alerted at the table. Opps are not entitled to know anything about your hand unless you have a an agreement with your pd. Why let them know what you have?

So 2s is not alertable and if asked 2s is "a 2s bid".

[Rado]

Hi Claus,

Your questions touch very difficult matter.

In general it's not allowed to psyche with conventional bids. For example to open 1C strong(16+) with 0 or 3 or 8 points, or to open Flanerry on 3Sp3He7Di0Cl for example. For more detailed answers and rules we might ask some experienced tournament directors I think.

Regards, Rado

[inquiry]

Quote

Wow wow, I strongly disagree with many posters

IMO 2 spades shouldn't be alerted.
Unagreed bids are considered "natural" or "to be interpreted" and don't requiere an alert.

I completely disagree with the players that said that playing online you should alter 2s. Playing online you should alert the same bids you would have alerted at the table. Opps are not entitled to know anything about your hand unless you have a an agreement with your pd. Why let them know what you have?

So 2s is not alertable and if asked 2s is "a 2s bid".

Luis, you are wrong here. The original poster made three clear statements... and two clear action... showing the expectation that 2S was 4th suit forcing and that he had a reasonable expectation his partner knew it.. and thus the need for the self alert.

First, he said...he was playing with "a regular internet partner" and that they agreed "to play 2/1, including fourth suit forcing,"

That statement, that they agreed to play 4th suit forcing, is clear evidence to me that there was at least an EXPECTATION that partner would understand 2S as fourth suit forcing. It was the fourth suit. And, btw, the standard treatment is 1C-1D-1H-1S to be natural and 1C-1D-1H-2S to be 4sf. So without prior discussion of this sequence, but with a 2/1 partner who agreed to play 4sf, I would have to assume that not only was my bid 4sf, but that partner would play it that way. The fact that this was a "regular" partnership (albeit an internet one) makes this inference even stronger.

So in fact, this is not an unagreed bid. Do you think when they said "let's play 4sf", the then discussed each of the following auctions?

1D-1S-2C-2H
1D-1H-1S-2C
1H-2C-2D-2S
1S-2D-2H-3C ?

Of course not. So should they not alert these because "Unagreed bids are considered "natural" or "to be interpreted" and thus not require an alert". That is nonsense. Of course they have discussed these, they AGREED to play 4sf. This is no different for the 2S bid on the given auction.

Then their is the evidence of the hand itself. He held...

Q9
532
AKQ75
AJ8

On this hand, 2Spades 4th suit forcing is the correct bid. So he had the agreement to play 4sf, he held the hand for 4th suit forcing, he was playing with a regular partner who knew they played 4sf, and he made a textbook 4sf bid. There is no hidding from the facts of this case as presented. This was fourth suit forcing, again as admitted by the original poster in his own words ("I decided to probe with 2S" - which was the third statment showing his expectations) and his subsequent action of raising to 3NT (which was a second action showing he thought his partner took his 2S as 4sf.).

If he thought his partner lacked a spade stopper he would not have bid 3NT. No not only did he bid 2S as 4sf, he then accepted his partner's bid as showing a spade stopper. He could have bid 3C (clearly forcing) if there was any doubt in his mind.

Now the fact that his partner really was clueless about the meaning of 2S (or else why bid 2NT), is NOT THE ISSUE. It is South's actions that are called into question.

1) regular partner
2) specific agreement
3) perfect hand for that agreement
4) made the bid based upon that agreement (probe)
5) took the expect subsequent action assuming partner understood the agreement

The duty of the alerter is to alert his bid when conventional. The evidence is OVERWELMING that south had an agreement, and used it. This requires an alert. Actually if alerted and explained, opener leader is LESS likely to lead a spade for we all would think that opener would hold SAQ of something.

As for what to alert? Alert 4sf. If they ask for more info, you could explain that this is the first time this sequence has appeared.

Now if South had bid 1SPADE over 1HEART, that would have been a psych and would not have to be alerted. (You never alert psyches... well if you frequently use...
1H-(x)-1S as a psych, your partner (the opener) should alert that is aware of your tendency not to have spades on this auction...but that is a different situation.

In committee... with this evidence, NS would lose any argument. The showing that North had no idea is beside the point when "self alerts" are used. And who knows, maybe north understood 2S as 4sf and decide to pscyh a stopper himself as 5Clubs looks so far away. So that they had no real misunderstanding at all.

Ben

[luis]

Quote

Luis, you are wrong here. The original poster made three clear statements... and two clear action... showing the expectation that 2S was 4th suit forcing and that he had a reasonable expectation his partner knew it.. and thus the need for the self alert.

First, he said...he was playing with "a regular internet partner" and that they agreed "to play 2/1, including fourth suit forcing,"

Oh, Seems like I misunderstood the question.
If they agreed 2s was 4sf of course it MUST be altered.
I thought they had agreed 1s was 4sf and 2s was not discussed that's why I posted what I posted :-)

[inquiry]

Actually they agreed to play 4th suit forcing. What they failed to agree on was after...

1C-1D-1H-?

Is 2S or 1S fourth suit forcing. They both know that one of them is 4sf, but apparently they had confusion about which it might be. Playing self alerts, the 2S bidder is obligated to alert his bid if, as he clearly meant it to be, he was using it as 4sf. The fact that his partner "might" think otherwise is not relevant. I think. Because he not only expected his partner to get it right, he assumed his partner did.

ben

[luis]

Ben,

If the 2s bidder wanted to bid 2s as 4sf then it must be alerted as you say.
OTOH if he thinks 1s is 4sf then 2s shouldn't be alerted.
When I read the original post I thought that 1s was 4sf and 2s undiscussed.
Maybe he can clarify this to me :-)

Just to prevent some confusion from my early post:
If 2s was intended as 4sf it must be alerted.
If 1s was 4sf then 2s shouldn't be alerted.

[paulg]

Quote

Ben,

If the 2s bidder wanted to bid 2s as 4sf then it must be alerted as you say.
OTOH if he thinks 1s is 4sf then 2s shouldn't be alerted.
When I read the original post I thought that 1s was 4sf and 2s undiscussed.
Maybe he can clarify this to me :-)

Just to prevent some confusion from my early post:
If 2s was intended as 4sf it must be alerted.
If 1s was 4sf then 2s shouldn't be alerted.

I would say,

If 2s was intended as 4sf it must be alerted.
If 1S is 4sf, then alerting 2S as undiscussed seems the norm in a non-pickup pair - this is one of the nice aspects of self-alerts in that it allows fuller disclosure than f2f bridge.

I willing to bet that a number of regular partnerships have not discussed what a jump in the 4th suit means, especially when it's 2S.

Paul

[luis]

Quote

If 1S is 4sf, then alerting 2S as undiscussed seems the norm in a non-pickup pair - this is one of the nice aspects of self-alerts in that it allows fuller disclosure than f2f bridge.
I willing to bet that a number of regular partnerships have not discussed what a jump in the 4th suit means, especially when it's 2S.

This is exactly what I was trying to prevent. If 2s is undiscussed you don't have to alert it, you are telling the opps that 2s may not show a real spade suit and making things easier for them. Do you alert ALL your "undiscussed" bids? I'm sure you don't then don't alert this 2s just because you don't have a real suit. This is very common in players without much experience they are asked about a bid they did online and they answer what they have.

[Codo]

Hi Luis,

sorry, I cannot let your statement unanswered.

You have to alert any bid, which you expect pd to understand and where his understanding is not just from normal bridge knowledge.

So, you need to decide, whether you belive, that he will understand your (2 Spade) bid because:
0. It is in your script
1. You talked about it.
2. You know, that he plays it this way with other pds.
3. You had similar situations with him before.
4. He wrote about it in a forum.
5. You wrote about it.
6. You played it before and he was watching/defending.
7. You belive, that his common sense in bridge will let him understand, what your bid was meant to be.

So, you are better sure, that it was number seven, because else you MUST alert.

I am never sure, because my memory is not working too good. So I alert anything unusual.

And btw, what do I loose, if my opponents at bbo (or ok-bridge, or...) do know something, which my pd won`t understand?
15 imps for playing in a splinter bid?
0.5 points for my lehman rating?

Come on luis, this is not worth nothing. At least it is not worth, to hide the meaning of a bid, which my pd may understand because he knows me better then my opps.

Kind Regards

Roland

[luis]

I super-disagree if you have not discussed the bid with your pd and then you don't have an agreement you don't have to alert the bid. Unless you want to make this game easier for your opps.

Example:
From a hand I played:
1h - pass - 2h - 4h (no agreement of course)

I bid 4h with 6 spades and 5 clubs.
If you think you have to alert 4h and say (Spades and a minor) then you are wrong, you will be giving info to your opps that your pd doesn't have.

IMHO you have to alert anything that your pd should have alerted playing normal bridge. Do you think your pd will alert 4h and when asked say "no idea". Nah. So 4h doesn't need an alert.

[paulg]

Quote

I super-disagree if you have not discussed the bid with your pd and then you don't have an agreement you don't have to alert the bid. Unless you want to make this game easier for your opps.

Example:
From a hand I played:
1h - pass - 2h - 4h (no agreement of course)

I bid 4h with 6 spades and 5 clubs.
If you think you have to alert 4h and say (Spades and a minor) then you are wrong, you will be giving info to your opps that your pd doesn't have.

IMHO you have to alert anything that your pd should have alerted playing normal bridge. Do you think your pd will alert 4h and when asked say "no idea". Nah. So 4h doesn't need an alert.

I feel this illustrates our different points of view and the standards we expect of our partners and opponents.

I would absolutely expect my partner to alert such a 4H bid. He would say that it is not discussed, but our style would be that this would be a 2-suiter.

I see nothing wrong and lots that is right in giving the opponents full disclosure even though partner, and hence our partnership, may be damaged by this.

Hiding behind the alerting rules for normal bridge is not an acceptable reason for non-disclosure because online bridge provides a private disclosure mechanism that is not available in normal bridge.

Quote

"We are committed to maintaining a pleasant atmosphere on Bridge Base Online" - BBO

Active disclosure of methods is one of the best ways to do this. Non-disclosure one of the ways to destroy it.

Personally, I take the same attitude to normal bridge too subject to the restrictions of when you can disclose.

Regards,

Paul

[luis]

I'm sorry seems like I can't make my point clear.

If your "style" suggests 1h-p-2h-(4h) is a two suiter then you should alert and your pd should alert the bid because you have an agreement even if its not written.

With one of my reg pds I used to bid some "strange" 3NTs with distributional two suiters ,example 1s-(3nt), he correctly alerted all those bids as "can be natural or can be a two suiter, we have bid 3n before with a freak 2 suiter". Experience is one valid form of an implicit agreement.

If you never played with pd and your first hand is the one I presented there's nothing to alert and many players would alert because playing online they can just tell the opps they bid 4h as a two suiter, this in my opinion is wrong.

All agreements implicit or explicit should be disclosed to your opponents but that doesn't mean that you have to disclose all your bids letting your opps know what you have.

[Codo]

Hi Luis,

I know, that you are not alone with your opinion about what is correct while alerting.
And I doubt, that there will be a consense about the right and wrong.
And there are some simple reasons:
1. It is totally different to play online. You quite often face pick-up pds or opponents.
2. You need to self-alert. Something very few guys have to do out there in the real world.
3. You play just for the game. No price-money, no master points, really nothing besides a good game.
4. You cannot use all f2f rules in online bridge. But who will/must decide which?

So your example does not proofe anything. And besides: IF we had played f2f and someone had asked me about your 4 Heart bid, I surely had said: Not discussed but should be two suiter with spades.
And I know, that in f2f, I should not say so much. They can get a TD ruling against me if I err.

But I still want an answer to the question: Why not give the knowledge to the opps.? They can defend more accurately? They sometimes gets overborad because the interpreted your bid wrong?

What is the real reasons not to tell them?

Kind Regards

Roland