[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     Pass
 1♠    Pass  2♥    Pass
 2♠    Pass  4NT   Pass
 5♥    Pass  5♠    Pass
 Pass  Pass  

[P_Marlowe]

ignore the comment, unless it is a regular
partner.

3D does or does not promise add. strength,
if it does, 2S is fine, if it does not 3D.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[cherdano]

The problem was obviously the 4N bid. Partner should bid 3S if playing 2/1, or 4S if playing a style where 3S would be invitational.
About 2S vs 3D: What Uwe said, it is a matter of style whether 3D promises extra (though in a SAYC-like system 3D has to promise extras). IF 3D does promise extras for you, it is pretty close, I would go with 2S.

[pbleighton]

I think the hand is worth 3D (assuming it's GF), but barely, it's a judgement call.

I agree with Arend, 4NT is a poor bid.

Peter

[Quantumcat]

Why does east not just bid 4S, his partner is a minimum and he'll probably lose a couple of minor tricks right away anyway?

[the hog]

Wayne, you have a very easy comeback to your "partner's" comment: "You are an idiot." Your bidding was impeccable.

[ochinko]

I would bid 3♦ (not necessarily extra strength) because 2♠ would promise 6 of them and no other suits.

It is more a matter of agreement, I believe, than a right/wrong bid.

[Quantumcat]

If you are not strong enough for 3♦, what's wrong with 2NT, anyway? (Partner presumably has some hearts)

[bid_em_up]

The_Hog, on Jul 20 2007, 09:07 AM, said:

Wayne, you have a very easy comeback to your "partner's" comment: "You are an idiot." Your bidding was impeccable.

For once, I agree with The_Hog.

[SoTired]

For slam, responder needs opener to have 1) controls in both minors, and 2) 3 of 4 missing keycards. That's a lot to ask for.

4N did not attempt to answer #1 which is just as important as #2. Playing 2/1, responder should bid 3S and see if opener q-bids a minor. In this case opener has controls in both minors, so ace asking might occurred anyway.

Playing SAYC, responder does not have the luxury of a forcing 3S. 4N is aggresive, but not that poor a bid. If responder found opener with something like AKxxx xx Axx Kxx, then 6S makes on normal breaks.

As it was, 5S only went down due to the poor spade break.

[ochinko]

bid_em_up, on Jul 20 2007, 05:27 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 20 2007, 09:07 AM, said:

Wayne, you have a very easy comeback to your "partner's" comment: "You are an idiot." Your bidding was impeccable.

For once, I agree with The_Hog.

Perhaps that's what Wayne wanted to know, I can't be sure anymore. I just thought the idiotic 4NT was a separate issue from the 2♠/3♦ bid.

[SoTired]

As I said in a previous post, playing SAYC, 4N is not that poor a bid. It is aggressive, but not an "Idiot" bid.

If opener did rebid 3D, it would not help responder.

[awm]

I think the east hand is a pretty obvious 4♠ rebid in any system. East has:

(1) Really good hearts.
(2) A fit for spades.
(3) No 1st/2nd round control in the minors.
(4) Minimum GF values.

Isn't this what 2♥ followed by 4♠ shows in 2/1?

As far as I know, that's the normal meaning for 2♥...4♠ in any system where 2♥...3♠ is forcing. If 2♥...3♠ is not forcing, one has to bid 2♥...4♠ with a slightly wider range of hands, but this range still includes this hand.

BTW 2♥...3♠ should be forcing in SAYC on the reasoning that SAYC includes a limit raise on three cards (so 2♥...3♠ cannot be limit raise) and opener's 2♠ rebid certainly didn't promise six cards (so 2♥...3♠ shouldn't be on doubleton). Basically 3♠ shows a real fit and the only hand with a real fit where you don't raise directly is a GF hand with a real fit.

[cherdano]

SoTired, on Jul 20 2007, 08:36 AM, said:

For slam, responder needs opener to have 1) controls in both minors, and 2) 3 of 4 missing keycards. That's a lot to ask for.

4N did not attempt to answer #1 which is just as important as #2. Playing 2/1, responder should bid 3S and see if opener q-bids a minor. In this case opener has controls in both minors, so ace asking might occurred anyway.

Playing SAYC, responder does not have the luxury of a forcing 3S. 4N is aggresive, but not that poor a bid. If responder found opener with something like AKxxx xx Axx Kxx, then 6S makes on normal breaks.

Well I disagree. 3 of the 4 missing keycards is not enough unless they contain both trump honors. 4N is really poor IMO, it will get you to very many bad slams (not only those where you are off two keycards).

Btw, I think in SAYC 3S should be forcing, as a 2/1 denies having a 3-card limit raise - the SAYC document isn't quite clear on this.

[bid_em_up]

SoTired, on Jul 20 2007, 09:39 AM, said:

As I said in a previous post, playing SAYC, 4N is not that poor a bid. It is aggressive, but not an "Idiot" bid.

If opener did rebid 3D, it would not help responder.

Yes, it is. Playing SAYC, if Wayne were to have everything required for slam to make, he actually would have had a 3D bid.

He would need something like AKxxx x KJxx Axx, in which case he might have rebid 2N (or 3D) instead of 2S. Even here where he has 3/4 keycards, 6S, while having chances, will still go down on the actual holdings. There is practically no hand that I can think of that would rebid 2S over 2H where it can be right just to up and start driving to slam on East's holdings. Bidding 4N over 2S is playing partner for the perfect hand, thereby making it a poor or "idiot" bid.

In 2/1, I would bid 3D after the 2/1 response.

[SoTired]

Quote

Isn't this what 2♥ followed by 4♠ shows in 2/1?

Yup... I agree. I overlooked that.

[cherdano]

awm, on Jul 20 2007, 08:46 AM, said:

I think the east hand is a pretty obvious 4♠ rebid in any system. East has:

(1) Really good hearts.
(2) A fit for spades.
(3) No 1st/2nd round control in the minors.
(4) Minimum GF values.

Isn't this what 2♥ followed by 4♠ shows in 2/1?

I think this shows usually better spades (i.e., four of them).

[pbleighton]

Quote

I think this shows usually better spades (i.e., four of them).

Not for me, or most of the pairs I play against. It shows 3+ trump and no independent slam interest.

Peter

[bid_em_up]

cherdano, on Jul 20 2007, 10:16 AM, said:

awm, on Jul 20 2007, 08:46 AM, said:

I think the east hand is a pretty obvious 4♠ rebid in any system. East has:

(1) Really good hearts.
(2) A fit for spades.
(3) No 1st/2nd round control in the minors.
(4) Minimum GF values.

Isn't this what 2♥ followed by 4♠ shows in 2/1?

I think this shows usually better spades (i.e., four of them).

In 2/1, please show me a hand that can have 4 spades, 5+ hearts and a 2/1 response that needs to leap to 4S just because it has 4 trumps, that would not:

1) splinter initially
2) use jacoby 2N initially
3) bid 3S instead of four over 2S.

(I'm sure its possible, its just not probable).

For me, the direct 4S at this point may even be 2 card support, but I play the 2S call promises 6.

[cherdano]

Heh, you guys haven't read "Improving 2/1 GF"?