[awm]

There are several benefits to the approach of reverses not showing extras that haven't been acknowledged here:

(1) Rebidding the major unambiguously shows six. This makes it easier to find 6-2 major fit games and slams, as well as diagnosing a 6-3 or 6-4 major fit more easily. It's pretty hard to unambiguously agree the major at the three level after 1M-2X-2M punt.

(2) With weakish 5-5 hands, you may never be able to bid the second suit if you start with a 2M rebid. For example 1♠-2♥ and opener holds 5-5 in the blacks. Rebidding 2♠ "because the hand isn't strong enough to reverse" could easily lead to 3♥ from partner and the clubs will never get mentioned. Now it's hard to even determine whether 3NT is playable (say opener has no diamond stop).

(3) You can always use a fourth suit bid as "do you have extras" or play serious/nonserious 3NT. There are other ways to look for extra strength. The early bids of the auction should be focused on finding the best strain rather than determining who has extras.

Of course, as a devoted player of the superior methods where 2/1 bids are not necessarily game forcing I have to play reverses show extras.

[pclayton]

Reverses in a 2/1 show extras. Not the values for a 1/1/2 reverse, but at least a King better than a minimum.

[mike777]

If you play sound openings, I believe playing a reverse after 2/1 means extras is very playable....In fact rebid of 2 of a major would very very often show 6 or excellent 5. That means....one major=2c=2d maybe 3 card minor..normal opener often.

xxxx....AKJxx...AQx...x
or
Qxxx...AKJxx...Axx...x
or
QJxx...AKxxx...Axx...x

[Fluffy]

It is good that people play it as showing just shape since it helps me find beginners wich I can proudly double, or just eject form the table. No body with half the brain winstomn has could play it as no extra strenght, bidding the same with 11 or 19 is so idiotic.

About those 6-2 things, every system has been developed because of a real concrete hand that failed, there you get yours. Sensible people use some gadgets to help here, but people who just wanna bid their suits at any price will not care about them.

[bid_em_up]

Winstonm, on May 6 2007, 02:13 PM, said:

Quote

WinstonM you are very smart and full of GRACE.

No, I'm not!

He got it 1/2 right, you definitely are full of something.

[han]

awm, on May 6 2007, 11:01 PM, said:

There are several benefits to the approach of reverses not showing extras that haven't been acknowledged here:

(1) Rebidding the major unambiguously shows six. This makes it easier to find 6-2 major fit games and slams, as well as diagnosing a 6-3 or 6-4 major fit more easily. It's pretty hard to unambiguously agree the major at the three level after 1M-2X-2M punt.

This is only true if you agree that 3-level bids also don't show extras and that you can rebid 2NT with xxx in one or two unbid suits and that you can raise with a minimum 5332 hand. If you agree to do all of these things, yes then 2M shows 6 but that's a large price to pay: much more than the reverse not showing extras.

(2) With weakish 5-5 hands, you may never be able to bid the second suit if you start with a 2M rebid. For example 1♠-2♥ and opener holds 5-5 in the blacks. Rebidding 2♠ "because the hand isn't strong enough to reverse" could easily lead to 3♥ from partner and the clubs will never get mentioned. Now it's hard to even determine whether 3NT is playable (say opener has no diamond stop).

True, playing the style you are arguing for you rebid 3C on the 5-5 hands, but you also rebid it on a poor 4-card suit, for example with AQJxx Kx xx Qxxx (or do you bid 2NT with that, yuck!). So it becomes hard for responder to take the 3m bid seriously: it doesn't show shape nor strength and takes up a lot more room.

(3) You can always use a fourth suit bid as "do you have extras" or play serious/nonserious 3NT. There are other ways to look for extra strength. The early bids of the auction should be focused on finding the best strain rather than determining who has extras.

I agree with you that modern methods can help you when you do find a major suit fit. It is tougher when you don't, especially when your high reverse takes up a lot of room (e.g. 1S-2H-3D giving very little information).

Of course, as a devoted player of the superior methods where 2/1 bids are [i]not necessarily game forcing I have to play reverses show extras.[I]

Then you are lucky that you can't become a victim of your own arguments above(joke). I think a better way to deal with the problems you mention above is to have responder bid 2NT often so that opener can clarify.

[han]

Fluffy, on May 7 2007, 09:41 AM, said:

No body with half the brain winstomn has could play it as no extra strenght, bidding the same with 11 or 19 is so idiotic.

Fortunately such bodies can only be found in the zoo and they don't play bridge you moron.

[mike777]

Again why not just rebid a 3 card minor,with ordinary opener, if you do not have a 6 card major or solid 5 card major to rebid?
1H=2c=2d(may be 3 card minor)
xx...AKJxx..AQx...xxx

That would mean you would need to rebid 2nt after say:
1H=2D=2nt

With xx.....AKxxx...xx.....AQJx

[han]

Jlall, on May 7 2007, 06:14 PM, said:

Hannie, on May 7 2007, 05:40 PM, said:

(1) Rebidding the major unambiguously shows six. This makes it easier to find 6-2 major fit games and slams, as well as diagnosing a 6-3 or 6-4 major fit more easily. It's pretty hard to unambiguously agree the major at the three level after 1M-2X-2M punt.

This is only true if you agree that 3-level bids also don't show extras and that you can rebid 2NT with xxx in one or two unbid suits and that you can raise with a minimum 5332 hand. If you agree to do all of these things, yes then 2M shows 6 but that's a large price to pay: much more than the reverse not showing extras.

Interestingly, Meckwell swear by this style, in the context of a strong club system. It seems theoretically unplayable to me even in a strong club context but obviously its not since they pwn... However in a natural system it would be even harder to pull off.

I think playing strong club makes quite a difference. I'm going to send a question to WWJD to see if Meckstroth would play this style when playing 2/1.

[mike777]

I do and think you can play that meckwell style also if you assume that opener will have the weaker hand very often. That makes responder hand a pretty solid hand to game force with. My guess this is the same philosophy as meckwell, their 2/1 game force hands are pretty good.

[Winstonm]

pclayton, on May 6 2007, 11:16 PM, said:

Reverses in a 2/1 show extras. Not the values for a 1/1/2 reverse, but at least a King better than a minimum.

Who the hell made you king of all bridge knowledge!!!

[Winstonm]

awm, on May 6 2007, 11:01 PM, said:

There are several benefits to the approach of reverses not showing extras that haven't been acknowledged here:

(1) Rebidding the major unambiguously shows six. This makes it easier to find 6-2 major fit games and slams, as well as diagnosing a 6-3 or 6-4 major fit more easily. It's pretty hard to unambiguously agree the major at the three level after 1M-2X-2M punt.

(2) With weakish 5-5 hands, you may never be able to bid the second suit if you start with a 2M rebid. For example 1♠-2♥ and opener holds 5-5 in the blacks. Rebidding 2♠ "because the hand isn't strong enough to reverse" could easily lead to 3♥ from partner and the clubs will never get mentioned. Now it's hard to even determine whether 3NT is playable (say opener has no diamond stop).

(3) You can always use a fourth suit bid as "do you have extras" or play serious/nonserious 3NT. There are other ways to look for extra strength. The early bids of the auction should be focused on finding the best strain rather than determining who has extras.

Of course, as a devoted player of the superior methods where 2/1 bids are not necessarily game forcing I have to play reverses show extras.

Aha! The weasle approach to answering.

[Winstonm]

Fluffy, on May 7 2007, 09:41 AM, said:

It is good that people play it as showing just shape since it helps me find beginners wich I can proudly double, or just eject form the table. No body with half the brain winstomn has could play it as no extra strenght, bidding the same with 11 or 19 is so idiotic.

About those 6-2 things, every system has been developed because of a real concrete hand that failed, there you get yours. Sensible people use some gadgets to help here, but people who just wanna bid their suits at any price will not care about them.

Balderdash! Typical Fluf nonsese.

Of course it should be played no extras - the game force has already been created so that eliminates the 11 count.

Must be European.

[Winstonm]

Hannie, on May 7 2007, 05:43 PM, said:

Fluffy, on May 7 2007, 09:41 AM, said:

No body with half the brain winstomn has could play it as no extra strenght, bidding the same with 11 or 19 is so idiotic.

Fortunately such bodies can only be found in the zoo and they don't play bridge you moron.

[Winstonm]

Jlall, on May 7 2007, 06:14 PM, said:

Hannie, on May 7 2007, 05:40 PM, said:

(1) Rebidding the major unambiguously shows six. This makes it easier to find 6-2 major fit games and slams, as well as diagnosing a 6-3 or 6-4 major fit more easily. It's pretty hard to unambiguously agree the major at the three level after 1M-2X-2M punt.

This is only true if you agree that 3-level bids also don't show extras and that you can rebid 2NT with xxx in one or two unbid suits and that you can raise with a minimum 5332 hand. If you agree to do all of these things, yes then 2M shows 6 but that's a large price to pay: much more than the reverse not showing extras.

Interestingly, Meckwell swear by this style, in the context of a strong club system. It seems theoretically unplayable to me even in a strong club context but obviously its not since they pwn... However in a natural system it would be even harder to pull off.

I am so sick and tired of hearing this crap...Meckwell this, Meckwell that, Meckwell says..... still only halfway to Garozzo's total wins ... of course, carrying around those lame teammates, Soloway/Hamman, adds a bit to their legend, but it doesn't make them the Bridge Encyclopedia, for crying out loud.

Doesn't anyone here have their own brain???? What the hell would you do if you had never heard of these two chumps? er...champs...

[Winstonm]

Jlall, on May 7 2007, 07:16 PM, said:

Hannie, on May 7 2007, 07:12 PM, said:

I think playing strong club makes quite a difference.

I agree

No, you don't.

[kenrexford]

For several years, I experimented with a partnership agreement where even non-reverses in a 2/1 GF auction showed extra stuff. E.g., 1♠-P-2♣-P-2♦. Opener's 2♦ guaranteed a non-minimum. Opener would bid 2♠ with a minimum, even if 5-5, 6-5, whatever, extremely distributional if he was a Rule-of-Almost-Twenty opener.

Any non-rebid of Opener's own suit showed 15+ HCP's or a six-loser hand.

This actually worked fairly well. I'd guage it as the second-best option. The best is for Opener to bid 2♦ after 2♣ whenever plausible and for reverses (and high-reverses) to actually show something.

Pattern first is idiotic (following the spirit here), unless one uses the grimace, the fast signoff, and the head scratch to distinguish strengths.

[mike777]

kenrexford, on May 7 2007, 10:29 PM, said:

For several years, I experimented with a partnership agreement where even non-reverses in a 2/1 GF auction showed extra stuff. E.g., 1♠-P-2♣-P-2♦. Opener's 2♦ guaranteed a non-minimum. Opener would bid 2♠ with a minimum, even if 5-5, 6-5, whatever, extremely distributional if he was a Rule-of-Almost-Twenty opener.

Any non-rebid of Opener's own suit showed 15+ HCP's or a six-loser hand.

This actually worked fairly well. I'd guage it as the second-best option. The best is for Opener to bid 2♦ after 2♣ whenever plausible and for reverses (and high-reverses) to actually show something.

Pattern first is idiotic (following the spirit here), unless one uses the grimace, the fast signoff, and the head scratch to distinguish strengths.

Not idiotic if you assume responder will have the stronger hand very often.
Otherwise you comments seem very playable.